EP150 | Tarif Timbal Balik A.S, Abang Belon, Letupan Putra Heights, Kemalangan Musim Perayaan

0:00 If this had happened when BN was in power, I think the parties currently in government with BN will side with Abang Belon. they will say yes, it's not just about enforcing the law, but this is related to the common people, who have no income, surely you don't want to be a cruel government. But it's funny how roles are reversed now. Right now, I see PH supporters, for example, their job today is just to bash Abang Belon.

0:47 Assalamualaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh and welcome to episode 150 of KS. Happy Hari Raya Aidilfitri celebrations, Syawal greetings to everyone. Shahril, how are you? Alhamdulillah. Was everything alright during the Raya celebrations? More or less. Syawal still lasts for a month, but the intensity of Syawal has started to subside for me, in terms of frequent open houses, family, friends, and so on. Thank you for attending my event the other day as well. Thanks for the invitation. Yes, but even though we've been busy with the Aidilfitri festivities and the Syawal celebrations, there's been a lot of big news

1:35 that has happened, which perhaps we should touch on a bit today. Maybe we can start? Straight away? Do you have anything else to say? No. I think our episode might be a bit shorter this time, it's a catch-up episode. A catch-up episode because we have a guest whom we also want to interview in the next episode, so we're keeping this episode brief. But the biggest news during this festive season is something that has impacted the world, a global event termed as Liberation Day. By Donald Trump, President of the United States, on April 2nd, he announced tariffs.

2:26 These tariffs are fees, export fees, roughly speaking. Export fees if we sell to the United States, we have to pay extra, additional fees to sell to the United States. That's what's called a tariff. The buyer pays the additional fee, not us? It's imposed on the product or the item, and the buyer in the United States has to pay the surcharge. So, what Donald Trump announced was a blanket 10% fee increase on all goods sold to the United States. And after that, he announced additional fees or tariffs for each country.

3:17 Based on a rather random formula. It's something like this: he asked his officials to try and calculate the fees imposed by those countries on products sold by the United States. Whether it's accurate or not, we don't know, and many analysts say it's indeed not accurate. His formula, because although he provided a rationale, and KJ tried to explain, that he wants it to be reciprocal to the supposed tariffs or fees imposed by other countries. But in reality, I think everyone has done the research showing that the formula used isn't even based on tariffs. But the formula used is the size of the trade deficit between the United States and that country.

4:06 So simply put, KJ, he takes a country's exports to the United States minus its imports from the United States. For example, Malaysia, we export 52.5 billion, we import 27.7, so the difference is 24 billion. That 24 billion is divided by our total exports to the US, which is 52.5, so supposedly we have a 47% tariff against the US. So he gives a discount, divides it by two. Divide by 2, divide by 2. So he claims it's 47%, he's very kind, he doesn't want to impose a 47% tariff on Malaysia, but he gives a 50% discount, so it's 24%. Correct. So that's his logic.

4:51 So his logic isn't based on reality either. We really don't have tariffs on goods from the US like the alleged 47%. And this has sent not just the global markets, but also the global economic outlook into a period of uncertainty. People don't even know what will happen because of this. Some countries immediately responded saying they will not impose retaliatory fees, like Malaysia and smaller ASEAN countries; we are more cautious and haven't responded with retaliatory tariffs. But there are countries like China that have already announced that

5:37 if America imposes tariffs or fees on our exports to the United States, we will do the same. And it has already been announced. And it has been announced, yes. So now we're waiting for the European Union. Yes. So what does all this mean? It means we are now seeing the end of the global trading system as we know it. The last time we had a high tariff system like this was in the 1930s. The Smoot-Hawley Tariff introduced by the United States before the Great Depression, which ultimately contributed to the Second World War. Of course many factors led to the Second World War but part of it was because of the global depression. So this is serious stuff, and this means that trade between nations, especially involving the United States and the world, will slow down,

6:28 and this will also impact national economies and the global economy. We might be facing a recession in the United States. But before we discuss the impact on Malaysia, Shahril, is this an act of creative destruction by Trump, because ultimately he wants America to be great, America to be wealthy? Does he feel that when he places high tariffs on exports coming into the United States, America can produce the things currently exported by other countries? Is that what he wants? American manufacturing to suddenly replace China, to replace Vietnam, to replace Malaysia and the goods they buy from these countries can be made in the United States? Surely it's not that easy.

7:15 Yes. And it's not easy to understand what's going on in Donald Trump's head. Because many have tried to analyze, make predictions, and so on, it's hard to understand because he's not very consistent in terms of what he's trying to do, and inconsistent... inconsistent in terms of his ideology. There are broad themes, Make America Great Again, and so on. I think we've discussed that. He doesn't like deficits. He doesn't like the US dollar being too strong. He doesn't like helping other countries with security and so on. That, I think, is consistent. But in terms of his implementation and what he does to achieve his goals, it's inconsistent. Because if we look at his logic, let's play out his logic, shall we?

8:02 Let's just spend a few minutes on that. I think it's clear he wants to try and bring the manufacturing sector back to the United States. And his hope is that by implementing these tariffs, companies in the United States and also companies from other countries will flock to the United States to build factories. But as hinted in the tone of KJ's question, it's not easy. Because surely the United States isn't suddenly going to do the kind of work Bangladesh does? Surely the United States isn't suddenly going to make the things Vietnam makes, because not all of those things, that manufacturing sector, are suitable for the economic conditions in the United States. And the cost is high. Exactly, right? And I don't think Americans want to do that work. So there's an inconsistency in that logic there. Secondly, even if they wanted to, which company, amidst this kind of uncertainty, would suddenly say okay,

8:54 I'll close my factory in Malaysia, in Vietnam, and move straight to the United States? Because I don't know how long this will last. Right? One moment you say it's okay, the next you say you'll impose tariffs. Then tomorrow you might say you're open to discussion. So even these tariffs, it's not clear they will last, right? So they could go higher, they could go lower. If I were a company, even a US company, I would hesitate to make any big decisions right now. Because building a factory isn't a one-month job. It might take 2, 3, 4, 5 years. By that time, Trump might be gone. So all of this leads not to attracting manufacturing to the US, but to recession, like KJ said. And even if Trump is still around, if he's still there in 4 years' time, it's like Shahril said: uncertainty. Because we don't know if this is the end point. Maybe this is also a negotiating tactic.

9:43 Maybe I announce it first, then you come to me on bended knees, and I'll reduce it based on the concessions you're willing to give me. Right. So that's one logic regarding manufacturing, KJ. I want to finish up this manufacturing point because, from my reading on the US economic situation, the US is having its own problems. in terms of the health crisis, the crisis of stagnant wages, and so on. But his thinking, the MAGA thinking, is that by bringing back the manufacturing sector to the US, the US's problems will be solved. Which is also questionable, to say the least. Because I think there's something else you need to consider: what are your domestic policies? What about the policies of the public health system, which is terrible in the United States? That is the thing you should probably be looking at. Or in terms of tax policies that seem too biased towards the rich.

10:31 Isn't that what you should be looking at instead of blaming the world and trade? Yap. And I think the adjacent point on manufacturing, Shahril, the inconsistency in Trump's thinking is, a large portion, even if all jobs or the manufacturing industry were brought back to the United States, the workers for that industry would be immigrant labor, who are being chased out by Donald Trump. Yes, another inconsistency. Who will do the work? You know, you're not going to expect the Rust Belt white population to suddenly go back to the factory. I think that population is diminishing. Yeah. So I don't know. I mean, some argue that Trump is a shrewd businessman. This is not the end game. I mean, there's a contrarian view out there that says

11:19 this is actually an effort to ensure there's inflationary pressure. Then the Treasury or the US Federal Reserve will raise interest rates. It can strengthen the US dollar and the cost of borrowing for the US is going to decrease. This is actually a contrarian view, but I don't know. But he doesn't want the US dollar to be too strong. Well, I think the contrarian view is that he wants inflation so that your debt service becomes less. Debt service, debt service gets less. So that's the contrarian view. But I don't know if he's thought... I doubt that far. That far. The other one, KJ, aside from his manufacturing goal, is supposedly his geopolitical goal. That is, with this, he can extract concessions not just for the economy but in other geopolitical matters.

12:06 But this too, I feel, is not very smart or prudent if I were a champion of the United States, because I feel you are now spending whatever soft power you have in this world, which is already declining anyway, but with actions like this, even your allies are no longer certain of your support, right? You impose tariffs on the European Union; Canada, which has nothing to do with the trade war with China, also gets hit. So all these things make people unable to rely, unable to depend on the US anymore. Not to mention the withdrawal of funds for USAID, a very important body for helping in terms of welfare in certain places, right? So all of that leads to a world situation that's not just the end of the global trading system as we knew it,

12:58 but in terms of the state of US hegemony, this actually accelerates the end of that empire. But I think we need to wait and see first because although there are movements from major countries like other countries in the G7 that have already discussed how they can build a system and also a trading bloc that is not so dependent on the United States. And I think there are also views from Malaysia. I saw the statement from MITI which says that we need to further develop trade within ASEAN, among ASEAN members, and also together with

13:43 countries like China, Japan, South Korea, the European Union, and so on. Of course, very sensible things to say so that we reduce our trade dependence on the United States, especially in this situation of tariff increases. But there are also countries that hold the view, and Malaysia is the same. I saw the statement from PMX yesterday that negotiations have started with certain individuals within the Trump administration, the Trump administration, to discuss how we can reduce the impact of these tariffs on Malaysia. I look at Vietnam for example; its president has discussed directly with President Trump and stated

14:30 Vietnam's readiness, or stated Vietnam's preparedness, to eliminate what are called tariffs on US goods. So you are seeing Vietnam requesting a deferral of tariffs on their goods. They are willing to give concessions, increase imports of US products, eliminate trade barriers. Whether tariffs or non-tariff barriers. So for the listeners and viewers of KS, when we trade with a country, it can impose a direct fee, that's the tariff, a direct tariff on your exports, or it can create a non-tariff barrier. For example, it can set certain standards, hygiene standards, health standards, to make it difficult for your product to penetrate the market of the country you want to export to.

15:19 So you've seen Vietnam, you've seen Cambodia, some of the smaller countries, they are already starting to bend the knee. To say to America, to Trump, "Okay, we don't want these tariffs imposed on us. What more can we do? What more can we buy from you?" So I think it's early to say, Shahril, whether a movement will emerge that separates the trading world from the United States because clearly for some countries, Donald Trump's threats are working. Agree. It's just that we don't have a choice. But in the long run, and perhaps not too long, maybe 5 years, maybe 10 years, all countries in the world will view the United States as an unreliable partner. So yes, now I have no choice. Vietnam has no choice.

16:06 Anwar Ibrahim, Malaysia has no choice. We also have to try and mitigate, mitigate its impact, because we need to protect our domestic economy. So, yes, we in the media can say all sorts of things, but as someone administering a country, one has to think about the best way to reduce the impact. But in the entire world, I think, anyone in foreign policy or trade policy will think we need to quickly do what is necessary to ensure that after this, there is no longer excessive dependence, and that is what will harm the US empire itself at some point. I think within our lifetime. So yes, right now we are hurting, whether in terms of the economy going into recession, recession will happen, and we'll discuss the impact on Malaysia later. All those things will happen.

16:54 We don't want to sugarcoat it. but in the long run, I think... maybe it's not Donald Trump's intention, but the effect will lead to a very, very different world. Another thing we want to try to understand as well, but it's hard to understand his thinking, because his thinking, one, is inconsistent, and two, it changes daily. but the view of economic analysts, the consensus is that this is a very large self-inflicted wound. Meaning, this is an action that will have consequences not just for other countries but also for US consumers. What Shahril said in the introduction earlier, the ones who will actually pay this fee are the US consumers.

17:42 because they won't be able to buy from American makers or factories in the near future. Maybe never, because there's no economic sense for American manufacturers to make things that Vietnam's making, things that Bangladesh is making, China's making, Malaysia is making, all of that. and they will still have to buy from the countries these fees are imposed on, at a cost that is higher. unless the US currency appreciates, which is that contrarian view that says if, even though Donald Trump doesn't want to see a stronger US currency, but if it happens, there will be a slight offset. But I think, net-net, they will pay more. Net-net, they will pay more for the same product coming from those countries. So we are also quite confused why Donald Trump taken an action that would cause a self-inflicted injury to the United States.

18:37 Yes. In terms of economics and, as I mentioned earlier, in terms of geopolitical pull. The US is killing the goose that lays the golden eggs, right? That's right. So for Malaysia, I think there's already been a statement from PMX. ...we are a trade-dependent nation; the value of our trade is more than 100% of our GDP, and a large portion of our trade is with the United States. and if we put aside the United States as our export destination, this tariff action will also cause a slowdown in trade with other countries. Yes, because it will have an effect on supply chains and the whole world. I think soon Bank Negara and also the Treasury might revise our GDP forecast for this year.

19:31 That makes it all the more important not just for us to find alternative markets for our exports but also to have internal resilience, Shahril, for this year. Strongly agree, and just to clarify, because I've heard some comments trying to minimize this impact. I think we need to be honest with the public that the impact will indeed exist. 16% of our exports go to the United States. But as KJ said earlier, other countries we export to will also be impressed by the current situation. then the amount of exports, the value of exports will probably take a hit. And that has a direct impact on our GDP, on the size of our economy, on the total output generated by our economy. If we can't export to the US or there's less demand from other countries, factories will become less active,

20:20 people won't invest, companies won't invest, maybe they'll slow down the hiring process. Potentially, there could be steps taken to reduce the workforce. These are all risks, not to scaremonger, but they are indeed on the horizon. So we need to understand that. Some might say, "Oh, but semiconductors aren't involved, right?" Semiconductors are exempted from that 24% tariff. One, I think it's still hit by the 10% tariff. So it's not nothing. Number 2, our semiconductor volume, although it's a large value, is only a part of our exports to the United States. Many of our exports to the US are E&E, electrical and electronic equipment, but those aren't semiconductors. Those will also be hit by the 24%. So let's not kid ourselves. Not to mention the other goods we export: furniture, rubber products, plastics, chemicals, petrochemicals, iron and steel which already have tariffs.

21:11 So it's gonna be, it's gonna hit us. So, regarding Malaysia's response, KJ, I think just to throw it out there, we don't have a complete answer today. I don't think anyone can claim to have a complete answer. But just to spark discussion. I see this tariff, it's clear that it doesn't target Malaysia specifically. It targets the whole world. What I fear, KJ... well, what I'm concerned about, not fear, I'm concerned... If there's a next step, like KJ said, maybe this isn't the end point. I'm concerned... ...that there's a next step where Trump, and the hawks around Trump, start targeting specific countries. On top of this tariff that hits everyone. I'm concerned if Malaysia ends up on the list of countries no longer seen as neutral. Let me play this out for you, KJ, because...

22:04 I've heard whispers that in Washington DC, on both sides of the aisle, recently, in the past few years, they see Malaysia as no longer necessarily non-aligned. And I can perhaps explain some data points that I suspect they're looking at. For example, the PM has already visited China 3 times. Okay, fine, he also went to the US twice during his tenure as PM. But in the US, I don't think there were any high-level bilateral meetings. He went for the UN, he went for APEC. In China, I think he's met Xi Jinping, Li Qiang, and they are coming here as well in the near future. There are several statements by PMX that could be interpreted as getting closer to China. For example.

22:50 March 2023 quote, "That's why we choose to openly and publicly support China and China's leadership." PMX said this. February 2024, "Good stable relations with the US while looking at China as an important ally." Criticizing the West as having Chinaphobia. February 2024. June 2024, describing China as, "a true friend." Some might say, okay, this is just rhetoric. But I... Oh, words matter. Words matter, and the US right now isn't filled with wise people. It's filled with people... ...who will read the signals. So when you signal things like this, not to mention the Vladivostok trip for the Eastern Economic Forum last year. The unresolved appointment of the ambassador to the United States.

23:36 Suddenly we wanting to join BRICS. All of that, I fear, sends a signal to the US that Malaysia is on that list of less-than-friendly countries. If that's the conclusion that reaches Trump and there's a subsequent step, I think there's a risk of added pressure. So I hope what's being done by the Geo-economic Strategy Centre, which maybe KJ can explain later, in Putrajaya, chaired by the PM, involves considering how our signalling in certain matters can be more balanced, if possible, except regarding Gaza. Because I don't think anyone in Malaysia is asking us to compromise on Gaza. But on the other things, maybe we can be a bit more delicate about them. I think that view should be taken into consideration.

24:22 I might have a slightly different view regarding how important Malaysia is. Maybe they have columns: friendly countries, non-friendly countries, and perhaps Shahril's assessment is correct. Malaysia might currently be closer to the threshold of the 'unfriendly' list. But I also understand the bandwidth or focus an administration in the United States can give to foreign countries. I'm not sure if Malaysia is significant enough to be on the radar. So I think it's worthwhile for us to be mindful so that our signals aren't too heavily tilted towards China.

25:11 But at the same time, I think we should also be mindful of the fact that, you know, we shouldn't overstate our importance in Trump's mind. And as long as we, as I always say, just keep our heads down, stay below the radar, don't attract attention, I think we will be okay in terms of additional punishment towards Malaysia. This new committee established by the government, chaired by the PM, the Geo-Economic Command Centre Committee, something like that. was established precisely for the purpose of... ...ensuring that the signals sent, actions taken, and policies formulated by the Malaysian government

26:01 take into account all the changes that are happening, so that we remain a neutral country, not too close to one country or another, and perhaps can advise the Prime Minister, even though we might not be a country on the radar screen, but a country... ...that always balances between the two great powers, the United States and China. I think Malaysia's role as the chair of ASEAN is very important this year. That may put us on the radar. We want to keep our heads down, but we might have no choice but to be on the radar because America will be watching, especially when we have the ASEAN Summit involving dialogue partners, including the United States. So yes, I think we should be mindful, and perhaps there are some steps that can be taken immediately

26:51 to ensure that the perception Shahril mentioned earlier can be corrected a bit. Balanced out a bit. I think the PM has also said that the Yang di-Pertuan Agong has consented to the name of the ambassador to be sent to the United States. Perhaps more programs involving US leadership can be planned for Malaysia's ASEAN chairmanship. I saw 2 days ago our Foreign Minister had a phone call with Marco Rubio, the United States Secretary of State. So we hope something comes out of that. Hmm... just a quick one, KJ, I want to ask your opinion because you were in the administration before. About our foreign policy community, whether at Wisma Putra [Ministry of Foreign Affairs], or in some of the main think tanks,

27:41 or certain individuals who are seen as influential and possess wisdom. Our foreign policy community in general, right? Does KJ have confidence that we have the talent, the intelligent minds, the capable people, with the networks and so on, to manage a landscape that I feel is unprecedented in our country's history? Intelligence, talent, and ability – those exist. Because we've had experts in international relations for a long time. Whether within the government at Wisma Putra or what's known as 'Track 2' in research institutions, think tanks, and so forth. But there's one word that you used just now which I'm a bit doubtful we possess, which is networking.

28:32 You can have the smartest PhDs in IR [International Relations]. But if there's no networking among those currently making policy and those currently in power in other countries, especially in the capitals of these great powers, you won't get anywhere. And I'm a bit doubtful that we have individuals who possess such networking. Meaning, they have very close connections with track 2 over there. They can get access to the White House, they can get access to the State Department. They have access to Brussels, for example, for the European Union, and so on. You know, with due respect to our career diplomats, of course, that is the official channel. Everyone has official channels.

29:21 But we need more... we need more people who have that kind of networking. Side and back channels. 100%. And I see that other countries, especially our neighbours, invest a lot of time in building... and sometimes these people don't necessarily come from the foreign policy establishment per se. You can use businessmen who have access and business in these countries to act as unofficial envoys. I mean, I say that lightly... ...lest people say KJ is outsourcing diplomacy. No, no, unofficial channels to operate. It's unusual times anyway. Yes, and these people have access to the leaders of that country because they do business in that country.

30:10 Probably better access, better than the traditional foreign policy establishment in our country. So I feel this geoeconomic command center needs to use not just traditional actors in foreign policy, but also non-traditional actors, especially businesses. Petronas' influence, for instance, in other countries. Businesses, whether they are GLCs or large companies making significant investments in other countries. For example, in the UK, maybe companies like YTL, companies like Axiata which have investments in the region. So I think they need to be involved too. Not just helping them make investments, but also using their access.

30:57 Hmm. And perhaps from my limited experience working in government and also in politics. I think our, I mean, we have good civil servants everywhere, but from my limited observation, some of our best civil servants are in Wisma Putra. So I also have hope. And like KJ said about track 2, in Malaysia our main think tank is ISEAS, right? I think they are, I know people in ISEAS who are extremely, extremely well-versed. and I hope their perspectives can also be presented in any decisions made by the government. Okay, let's take a short break and return with some other issues.

31:44 Okay, welcome back to episode 150 of KS. I think this time we're doing a rather short episode. Perhaps in the last segment, we want to bring up some issues that occurred during Raya. Many of which I think have already been discussed. The first one involves a seller, a trader, a trader on the pedestrian walkway on Jalan Tuanku Abdul Rahman, Kuala Lumpur, who has been nicknamed Abang Belon. The issue is there was a viral video, a scuffle between Abang Belon and DBKL enforcement officers. It has been politicized, unfortunately.

32:31 In the video, it appeared as though Abang Belon was roughed up by the DBKL enforcement officers. DBKL issued a statement saying Abang Belon acted aggressively, pushing a DBKL enforcement officer after being warned, the third warning given. This Abang Belon indeed doesn't have a trading license. he continue to sell on the pedestrian walkway. and it just became an unfortunate political issue. He was also hospitalized, some said his spine was fractured. There are those riding on Abang Belon's issue, using him as a sort of, political accessory. There are also those who criticized Abang Belon, saying Abang Belon has a track record, a prior criminal record.

33:22 and Abang Belon also came forward yesterday in a press conference, crying, saying surely his past mistakes shouldn't cause him to be roughed up by the enforcement officers. So a lot of things to unpack here, Shahril. Firstly, of course, if DBKL wants to enforce the law, we cannot stop that. We have to encourage and we praise any step taken to enforce the law. But is there room for discretion sometimes? Especially when someone is trading by the roadside, wanting to sell balloons on the eve of Raya, trying to earn a living. I mean, taking it from that perspective.

34:08 Yeah. I prefer the second perspective, perhaps. Because, that's why I feel if we face any issue like this and our first and only logic is 'follow the law, full stop'. Then we are not sensitive to the reality of Malaysia. Because if Malaysia functions purely on a legalistic basis, many things cannot be done. And actually, many conflicts will arise. I'll mention something simple, KJ, where I am also at fault. Every Friday prayer, where do we park our cars? If we followed the law, people would say just tow the car. Try doing that in Malaysia and see what happens. across Malaysia when people go for prayers every Friday. So there is room for discretion.

34:53 there's a lot of room for discretion in Malaysia in managing matters related to the people, related to race relations, related to issues where the seller is clearly not wealthy. So there needs to be some discretion and thinking while we improve our laws. But when will we get there? Because if we take the United Kingdom as an example. We would never consider double parking. Yeah. Because we know we'll get a ticket/get towed and we wouldn't consider complaining or going to social media saying I was mistreated by the City of Westminster, you know? Because you'd get fined/towed. So... Because we take the bus. No, no, I mean that's the point. The point is when will we become a developed nation, a country of laws where it is the law, full stop.

35:39 Agree. I think it needs to be done in parallel. So the infrastructure needs to be there to enable that to happen. So like this Abang Belon, perhaps I'm not too familiar, but what alternatives could he pursue that would generate the same income? So let's say, I think this parallel process is already happening in many places. The other day we talked about URA when we interviewed Datuk Azman, right? We discussed more generally about how KL, the city of Kuala Lumpur is to be modernized with facilities for retail sales and so on for traders to do business. But as long as that infrastructure isn't there, they won't be evicted or forced out and so on.

36:28 So as long as we haven't completed that balance, let's not be too harsh in enforcement at certain times. And I'm also interested in the response because if this had happened back when BN was governing, I think the parties currently in government alongside BN would have sided with Abang Belon. Hmm. They would say yes, it's not just about enforcing the law, but this is related to the common folk, those without income, surely you don't want to be a cruel government. But it's funny how roles are reversed now. Now I see supporters of PH, for example, their job today is to bash Abang Belon.

37:14 This Abang Belon is useless, this Abang Belon broke the law. So I think this level of, like Shahril said, parallel, even though we want to enforce the law, but this discretion, empathy, don't let it disappear once you are in power, suddenly having no empathy at all for people like Abang Belon. Yes, Abang Belon is not someone who is totally innocent. We see he has past cases, 13 past criminal records, but you know, and then he did act, somewhat aggressively towards the DBKL enforcement officers. But I don't think this is the way forward. Yeah. Yeah. Another suggestion perhaps we can offer is, let's expedite the use of body cams. If in other countries, it's now mandatory, for example in developed countries, it's mandatory for enforcement personnel,

38:05 for example police, DBKL, any officers or personnel enforcing the law on the front lines, in the field and so on, to wear body cams so there is transparency when investigations occur, if anyone alleges being roughed up and so on, they can refer to the body cam footage. And this is not just for the victim or the public, but it's also for the enforcement officers. Sometimes people accuse enforcement officers of roughing up civilians when they didn't do anything. They followed the regulations, and they are accused, 'Oh, this DBKL officer was excessive, too aggressive,' but they can show the proof. Indeed, we already gave warnings, we indeed advised politely. But when he didn't listen and responded aggressively,

38:51 that's when we had to move in. Then I think that's reasonable. So it's to protect both the public and the enforcement officers. The Royal Malaysia Police has already started, right? Yes, so perhaps extend it to other enforcement agencies. Especially the local authorities (PBT). Because these local authorities deal a lot with people on the ground. Correct. Yeah. Correct. So I think we hope there is a good resolution and we hope there's empathy from all parties and let's not be too, whatsit, too quick to blame any party in this matter. The Putra Heights gas pipe explosion, a very sad incident. It's still under investigation. I think if I have a point to make, Shahril, let's not preempt the investigation because there's a lot of finger-pointing, whether towards the developer,

39:41 towards the local authority (PBT), towards the state government, or towards Petronas itself. We don't know as of now, as of the 7th of the month, what actually happened whether the work done by the developer's contractor caused the explosion. But what's certain is, it's not just an investigation concerning the explosion, but I think a more comprehensive postmortem of this Putra Heights incident, Sharil, is the safety of residential areas and also the responsibility of the Local Authority (PBT), developers, and also the responsibility of contractors given permission by the Local Authority to carry out specific works

40:27 so that the people understand that they are safe in their housing areas. Yes. Yes. Yes, I don't have much to add, KJ, because there's a lot we don't know. What we hear more are the questions, which perhaps we can repeat. From the facts that have already been shared by the police themselves. We know there's confirmation that there was excavation work 30 meters from the explosion site. So that sounds a bit funny and sounds like it shouldn't have happened. Shouldn't have happened. Yes. Number 2, I read the police confirmed Petronas informed them that there were no warnings or early indications regarding a leak because Petronas' control system has sensors. So if I understand correctly, the sensor didn't pick up anything. So if we trust Petronas sensors, then there are also questions. Then what happened?

41:13 Was it a sudden, sudden leak or something worse than that? We know statements from 56 individuals have been recorded as of a few days ago and we know the police asked for, I think, one to two weeks for a more complete investigation. So, I'm confident we will return to this topic when we know more facts. And perhaps among the questions we can also raise here on KS, going back to the developer's responsibility. because in the developed area, the developer has full responsibility after being granted permission by the Local Authority in terms of safety, especially concerning critical infrastructure like gas pipes.

42:00 And of course again, we uphold the rule of law in our country. Developers must comply with all regulations set by the Local Authority, ensuring that a safe distance between buildings and gas infrastructure is maintained. So if Shahril mentioned earlier the confirmation of 30 meters. I don't think that's safe. So something wrong has happened here. And we hope that firstly, the investigation is carried out quickly. Secondly, I think the culprit has to be identified and has to be named. And the compensation must come from the party at fault in this matter. Whether it's the developer, the Local Authority, and so on, we leave it to the police to investigate. And thirdly and most critically, Sharil, is how incidents like this don't happen again.

42:49 Because this not only affected Malaysians but also tarnished our image at the global level. I don't know if you saw social media everywhere, mushroom explosion in Malaysia, Petronas pipeline. So of course there will be an impact on Malaysia's and also Petronas' image that something like this could happen in the year 2025. And how, if there were - I don't want to preempt the investigation - if corners were being cut, some hanky-panky things at the local council level involving contractors, developers, and the local council. This is all speculation, okay. Just don't, don't, don't confirm it. Then I think we need long-term assurance that this won't happen again.

43:34 Yes. If that is the case. Yes. If that's the case. The last thing on this is, well, it's quite sad because I saw many videos during this fasting month involving lorry accidents. It is said that during Hari Raya or a few days before Hari Raya, large lorries are not allowed on the roads. But there's clearly an issue related to lorries being on the road and also accidents involving lorries on the road. And we don't know why this can happen even though, as we mentioned, we are a nation of laws, there are already regulations, there are already directives issued, but there are still lorries roaming the roads

44:24 and unfortunately, right now, there isn't a good enough explanation from the Ministry or from the Minister to the point that Anthony Loke has been nicknamed Anthony 'Lorry'. Oh really? I didn't read that one. True, true story. Yes, I think we've raised this matter a few months ago about road safety, not just during festive seasons but there are so many reports and pictures we see of lorries carrying overloaded cargo and so on. What KJ explained is about the festive season and accidents. There are also other accidents that can happen when carrying waste or carrying chemical substances, hazardous materials.

45:12 materials that are sensitive in terms of their hazards. All of that, I sometimes see when looking at social media, there are pictures showing unsafe conditions, and occasionally we read news about chlorine leaks and so on. All of that, chlorine drums falling out of the lorry, whatever. which I feel requires JPJ to be more robust in its monitoring because we don't know if the goods being brought in are imported or come from legitimate industries in Malaysia? Yes, if they come from imports, then that needs to be monitored. and not blaming any local industries. So it is indeed an issue of inter-agency implementation. And to break it down, the accusation against the Ministry of Transport and their agencies, especially JPJ and also the Commercial Vehicle Licensing Board (CVLB)

46:05 is that they now - this is an accusation from the people, okay - they don't dare to touch these transport companies because these transport companies are too powerful and they say don't, don't bother us. If you bother us, we will increase our rates and also increase our fees and this will have an effect on the supply chain, inflationary effect. So there are 2 accusations. One is the threat from the transport industry that this will affect the cost of doing business, which will contribute to inflation and because of that, perhaps the government isn't very active or aggressive in enforcing the law.

46:50 The second is the economic power, the commercial power of these companies, which makes the government afraid to touch them. So whatever it is, people don't want to see these cases anymore and people don't want - I think the government also doesn't want - people making accusations that the Ministry of Transport especially, and the agencies under the Ministry of Transport, are afraid to take action against these companies. Again, coming back to being a nation based on laws. Hmm. But KJ, do you see this as an enforcement issue, not enough manpower? What is the issue here? I mean, 'not enough manpower' is often used as an excuse, but when things have already happened,

47:37 I think swift action, I think... I don't, I don't know. I mean, when you give an instruction, a ban on lorries on certain days. And then it's blatantly And it's blatantly being flouted. I don't think it's a matter of not enough manpower. It's just, you know, the lorry drivers, the lorry companies are not taking you seriously. Hmm. Yes. That's that's it. Okay, we'll keep this episode short and we will be on air again soon with a very interesting interview with someone, a minister. A Malaysian minister. A minister. Okay. Thank you.