The Extraordinary Magic of Ordinary People with author Brad Meltzer

0:00 It's 1938. Hitler's encroaching and World War II is encroaching on our shores. And two Jewish 17-year-old kids are the ones who come up with the idea of Superman. And it sells a million copies and no one can understand why. What does everyone immediately do is they start making more heroes that have capes and that look like him and have muscles. But nothing sells like Superman. And why? Because they don't have Clark Kent. They're missing that key ingredient. The key ingredient is not the heat vision or the powers of the things or lifting a car over your head, but it's that part of Man, I wish I could do something that's beyond oursel and do something right, especially by other people. If you're a nerd, you're going to love this episode. If you're not a nerd, you're going to love this episode. If you're a nerd, you probably already know Brad Meltzer's name. And if

0:46 you're not a nerd, you probably still know who he is. He's the guy with all the mystery books in the airport. Brad Meltzer is a prolific writer. He's written Superman, Spider-Man, and Batman comics. His books are the toast of the thriller and conspiracy genres. He created a whole series of inspiring short biographies for young readers. And if that's not enough, last year he gave a commencement speech at Michigan that went viral online. The world needs more empathy, more humility, and certainly more decency. If you really want to shock the world, unleash your kindness. Basically, if it involves storytelling, he has mastered it. But in the age of

1:31 AI, Brad is living proof that the human touch is what makes a true hero. This is a bit of optimism. This episode is brought to you by True Classic. The way they became our sponsor is because I loved their t-shirts and so we just called them up and asked them if they wanted to work together and they said yes. So check out their clothes at trueclassic.com. So you know one of the things look you and I have known each other a very long time. How many books when I met you I think you'd written a book. Yeah. I mean I truly had written like a couple books had no kids books which we should talk about thanks to you. Right. And I and I had no book or

2:18 no TED talk when we first I think you had just you were just starting the speaking circuit. I was just starting the writing circuit. So I wrote my first book I think 15 16 years ago. 15 and a half 16 years ago. And I have since written three thinkythinky books. One book inspired by a children's book and one workbook. And that's my URA for 16 years of work. you I have I have contempt for you because in only a few more years you have written five non-fiction books about conspiracies 13 thrillers and 60 children's books this

3:06 in addition to I don't know how many comic books I really hate you no listen the thing is is let can we just give credit where credit's due I would not be you had a right then. Is that is this the big revelation? No. Listen, I don't think we've ever talked about it publicly. I wouldn't be doing this without you and without our friendship and and we are we were starting out both of us. And just paint the picture, right? My brother-in-law says, "You got to meet Brad Meltzer." You're like, "Who's that?" He says to me, "You got to meet this guy, Simon Synynic." I'm like, "Who's that?" We get on the phone because we're just like, "Whatever, Will Kibbitz." And we get on the phone and I remember just being like, "I can't believe I like this guy. I can't believe it. And so I call, we're on the phone and I say, I'll never forget it. I said to you, listen, this is going to sound crazy. You were starting out on You

3:53 wanted to write a book proposal. I wanted to figure out my why, right? And I said to you, why don't you come to Florida? We'll spend half the day. You'll figure out my why, and the other half I'll help you with your book proposal. And I'll never forget, you said to me, that is the craziest stupid thing I've ever heard. I'm in. And and you came down to Florida. I don't know if I've told you this part of the story. We work on my why. Yeah. And you tell me, you didn't know anything about me. I don't know anything about you. And you tell me after I tell you all about my life, I give you everything I've got. You're like, tell me about who you know, everything. You do the whole why thing with me. And you look at me and you said, you believe ordinary people will change the world. And I well up with tears. And I go, "Have you read any of my books?" You said, "No." I said, "That's what every one of my books is about." And I didn't even know it until

4:39 that moment. And here's the part you don't know is I tell my mother, may she rest in peace. I said, 'I met this guy, Simon, and he told me my why, that I believe ordinary people change the world. My mom says, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. She goes, I could have told you that. You've been like that since you're little. And I go, I know, Mom, but you didn't tell me that. Simon told me that. And she goes, he just held up a mirror to you. And I'm like, I know, but sometimes you need the brilliant person to hold up the mirror. And I love the fact that she's like, "That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I could have told you that. You've been like that your whole life." So that was my mom's review of you. But of course, she realization of my work I could possibly hear some mother thinking, you know, that everything I told you was completely obvious. I mean, that is

5:26 about as good as it gets. I said it can't be more right than her saying, "You've been like that forever." And I still didn't know. My mother knew and I didn't know. And you figured it out. You said to me, "You have when you gave it to me, you said, "Here's the thing. Now you have to live it." Yeah. And and you said, "You have to say it out loud." And the first time I ever said it out loud is when I won the Eisner Award. I said it out loud to a group of people at San Diego Comic- Con. And I went up in front of this massive group of people of the people I respect the most, the Oscars of Comic Books, and I said, "I believe ordinary people change the world." I didn't know we were supposed to say it or not. Do we tell people that or not? And then I finally, you'll see in like every speech I give and everything. I remember calling you once and being like, "Is it okay to tell people?" You're like, "Yeah, tell people." I'm like, "Oh, I didn't know if I was supposed to." Um, and obviously, even

6:12 when I did my commencement address, I was like, "I'm I'm saying your name. I don't care. I got to say it to everybody." Well, that's very kind of you and I'm glad my work has had such a profound impact on on your life and your work because uh your proposal was completely useless for me. The thing we did write a proposal. We just to be clear, we did write a proposal in the in the afternoon and then I remember going to write the proposal. I said I said, "How'd the proposal go?" And you said, "I threw it away." And I'm like, "What do you mean you threw it away?" You're like, "I threw it away and I sold the books without you." I'm like, "What happened to my work?" So my mother tells you you're a genius and your mother tells you chuck it in the trash. Well, I mean, in fairness, in fairness, uh, you know, we both helped each other with what we needed at the time. I think what we needed, what we truly needed was the other to figure help us figure out what

6:58 we truly needed was just the other person to get us unstuck in whatever the thing it was. I was the objective third party for you who happened to have a special set of skills. Uh me and Liam Niss. Special set of skills. That's a I have a guy in my phone who has the special set of skills that my whole family knows if anything happens they know who to call. I met a guy once who is a Marine a Marine Raider which is like the Navy Seals but they call them the Raiders. And when I first and he's br he by the way he looks like Superman. He's like he's got a little curl in the you know like the whole thing. I mean built like a Brit a brick house. I mean like he is just a machine this guy. And I remember when he met him he gives me a business card

7:44 and he says if you ever find yourself in a foreign jail, call me. Yeah. That's what this guy did with me. He's the guy I go to whenever I want to murder someone in one of my thrillers and I want to do especially torture someone. I call him and then he'll say to me, "How do you feel about the Russians?" And I'm like, "What do you mean?" And he's like, "I have someone who tortures Russians or is Russian and tortured other people." And then I get a phone call. He's like, "Tell me when to be where I am." And then he comes and I get a phone call from people who you're like, "You don't know the number. You can never call him back. They're calling from a phone that God knows burner phone." And you're getting like, "This is how Russians actually torture people." And and you'll see my book what you're saying if if if a GRU agent or KGB agent ever reads one of your books and it's the torture scene of like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty

8:29 accurate. Well, this is also how I know it is I always say to them, you want to be in the acknowledgements and not one of them says yes. None of them. Well, of course. Of course not. But they're great because they're like, you know, you see these movie in in Taken or whatever. There's like a guy who opens a suitcase and he's got like, you know, do like, you know, a hacksaw and all these things and he's like, that's not how we do it at all. That's like there's nothing, you know, he'll tell you about I mean gruesome things that you do to make to hurt people and make sure they stay alive. That's the key thing. I am both tempted to go down this rabbit hole with you and you don't want to go not to go down this rabbit hole. Don't go down the rabbit hole. How did you Were you a writer as a kid? I I am only a writer because of of my ninth grade English teacher. I really believe that. My ninth

9:15 grade English teacher was this woman named Sheila Spicer. And good name. She, you know, my family, my family struggled. There were no books in my house. My parents didn't read anything. My mom read like, you know, the Star in the Inquirer, my dad read the sports pages, no books. And this English teacher in ninth grade when we moved to Florida, uh, my dad lost his job and she changed my life with three words. She said, "You can write." And I was like, "Well, everyone can write." She said, "No, no, you know what you're doing." And so she tried to put me in the honors class. I had some sort of conflict. She said, "Here's what we're going to do. you're going to sit in the corner for the entire year. Ignore everything I do on the blackboard. Ignore every homework assignment I give. You're going to do the honors work instead, and you're going to thank me later. And a decade later, Simon, I went back to her classroom. My first book was published.

10:01 I knocked on the door. She said, "Can I help you?" I said, "My name is Brad Meltzer. I wrote this book and it's for you." And she starts crying and I said, "Why are you crying?" And she said, "You know, I was going to retire this year because I didn't think I was having an impact anymore." And I said, "Are you kidding me?" And I said, "You have 30 students. We have one teacher." And Michelle Spicer is the first person who ever told me I can write. And she changed my life in that action. But by the way, this this to me fundamentally is what service is, what purpose is. True purpose is the opportunity to serve those who serve others, right? And just like Sheila Spicer, you will carry their name around with you for the rest of your life. Now, if I ask you to tell me all the names of the teachers that you had that day on your schedule, you can't remember any of them. You maybe one or two of them. The idea that someone can have an impact in someone else's life

10:47 that they carry your name around with them for the rest of their lives. This is what it means. And you are now who you are today. Career definitely, but even your personality in some way, shape or form, in part because of this one human being who didn't even know that she had an impact. Miss Spicer's one. I mean, but it's not just teachers, you know, for me. And this is, you know, this gets back to my why, right? is there's a woman when my when my dad lost his job, we moved to Florida. We we we lost everything and we had to move in with my grandparents in Florida because we we had no place to live. We didn't we were worried about safety. And it's my mom, my dad, my sister, and myself are living with my two grandparents, six of us in a one-bedroom apartment. Wow. And everyone in Florida in this condominium

11:33 was complaining about us saying, "You can't have six people in a one-bedroom. They're sleeping on the floor. you can't do that. They were trying to evict us every day and it was terrifying. I remember being I was 13 years old. It wasn't like I was a little kid. I knew everything that was going on. Yeah. And this one neighbor comes to my grandmother and says, "Listen, I see what they're doing to your family. I'm going to move out of my apartment. You take my apartment for you so your family could have some space and won't be evicted." The nicest thing anyone to this day has ever done for my family and arguably for me. And I remember as a kid her name was Miri, but when I was young I always heard her name as Mercy. And make no mistake that mercy and empathy is what she showed us. And I'll never forget her name ever. I carry Mercy around with me forever. Wow. I mean your

12:21 life in is a reflection of your characters, right? That you said it like you didn't even realize it, but you were writing books about ordinary people who change the world. And these are ordinary people. Yet these decisions that they make have profound impact in the world. I mean, I love the fact this is, you know, art imitating life and life imitating art. Um, how integrated and how in inseparable your life is and and your characters. No. Oh, yeah. I mean, look, it's because it's my existence. It's all the proof I have. I've never even told you the story. So, I used to I used to work at this um I used to scoop ice cream at the Hogenas in in the Aventur Mall in high school for four years. And I remember this woman, she used to uh she used to come over one day, she would snap her fingers at me. And I said, "Ma'am, you know what? I'll be with you in a moment." She's like,

13:07 "Help me now." And I'm like, "Ma'am, I I'll be right with you." She says, "No, you got to help me now." And I said, "You know what, ma'am? You're being rude. I'm not going to help you." And she starts screaming at me. She goes, "You're going to be working at this miserable hogen and for the rest of your miserable life." And I said, "Ma'am, if I am working here for the rest of my miserable life, you're still never getting any ice cream." And I used to tell that story laughing and saying that never bothered me. But it absolutely bothered me. Yeah. And the reason it bothered me was this is I thought it would make my life feel like my dad's life, a financial struggle. But here's the story you've never heard is I used to work at that hog and with a guy named Nick Wicket. And Nick Wick was my he and I both had nothing. Like if I had nothing, he had less than nothing. I had two parents. He had a a single mom, right? And Nick struggled even more than

13:53 we struggled. And we were struggling. And I remember I used to wear a it was the it was the late 80s so everyone wore gold chains and a little charm on it in Miami. My charm was a Superman charm and Nick's charm was I had a gold Superman charm that I wear and his was a um a a tale of a killer whale because he wanted to train the whales at SeaWorld. That was his dream for his whole life. And I lose track of Nick and because it was pre- internet, we didn't know where it was. My first book comes out. It's my time for my my high school reunion. So, I have everyone's email and so I send invitations to everyone for my high school and the the first events, you know, yeah, where I live, my family's there, but I'm in a event in Vero Beach, Florida. There's nobody there. It's like my wife and my family and nobody else.

14:39 There's can't be 10 people there. And in walks Nick Wicket with a pint of Hogen ice cream. And I'm like, "Oh my gosh, what are you doing now?" He goes, "Guess." I go, "I have no idea." I said, "Where do you live?" He says, "Orland." And I go, "Oh my god, you train the dolphins at SeaWorld. That was your dream. You always wanted to train the dolphins at SeaWorld." So he says, "You got to come see me do my job." I'm like, "Okay, I'm coming." So I take my kids to SeaWorld. Nick gives a little seats like roped off. So we're all excited. The show starts and the show begins with a dolphin that leaps out of the air and goes like 25 feet into the air. And Nick is on the nose of the dolphin as it flies in the air. And I watch him and I start balling crying because I realize

15:25 this kid who came from nothing, who that woman screamed at us and would say, "You, we're never going to be anything. We're never going to have anything. He's living his dream." And I remember afterwards he saw me. He says, "Why are you crying?" The only person who cried as much as you was my mother. And I was like, "Nick, you know, you did it. You actually did it." And that was again, it was it's the thing that I always write about. It's that ordinary person who just can reach beyond that and prove that there's no such thing as an ordinary person. What is it that all of these people in your life have in common? Yes, they're ordinary people. Yes, they push through adversity, but what is it about them that they all have in common that you can only see now? Yeah, I I do think and this is and I'll include the unordinary people, right? The Rosa Parks, the the

16:12 Jane Goodall. I mean, I've written books about Jane Goodall, Amelia Hehart, Abraham Lincoln, Dr. King. I mean, so now I've seen the most amazing people in the whole planet, and I've seen the people that are like myself, just ordinary people trying to do their best. And they have one thing all in common, the ones who are successful. And it's simply this. They're doing what they love. They're doing what they can't do anything else. But do that. And it may be, you know, Jane Goodall does it with chimpanzees. Jim Henson does it with puppets. Ameilia Hart does it with planes, but they're doing that thing that they they can't not do. And for me, it's writing. For me, it's telling stories. For you, it's inspiration. I don't care what you did where you were. You cannot help but inspire. That's always been your superpower. And Nick

16:57 Wicket couldn't help but go and be on that nose of that dolphin at SeaWorld. And you know, and my teacher had to find that person who can write because that's her passion is saying, "Where's that kid? I'm going to find him. I'm going to help them. If it's not just passion, it's putting in the time and putting in the work. You know, it you these things aren't magic. They don't just happen by themselves. They take time and intentionality and they take you, right? You taught me that. That was your word. Full commitment to the bit or it all falls apart. Yeah. That was your line. And that's what they all have in common is that passion of of what they love and then that full commitment to it. That is a potent combination. Let's dial it down. kids graduating high school, kids graduating college, what do I do next?

17:43 And they invariably get some completely useless advice from a guidance counselor, parent or friend, which is do the thing you love, follow your bliss, find your passion, right? It's it's true and useless. It I I actually think it's terrible. Like it it really borders on terrible advice because it makes you think that it's it's a simple thing. It's not. So, so how what so the thing that you're advocating, how is that different from that unhelpful advice? Like, so I asked you like what all the all these ordinary people have in common and you and you know they they did the thing they love, they pursued the dream, they pursued the passion, but how how does somebody who's trying to figure out what that is, regardless of where they are in their life, like how did you like you didn't

18:29 know, somebody else saw it in you? There's an alchemy moment. and the alchemy moment, right? I I got on my first book 24 rejection letters. There were only 20 publishers. I got 24 rejection letters, which means some people writing me twice to make sure I got the point. And I said, if they don't like that book, I'm going to write another. And if they don't like that book, I'm going to write another. And what happened at the time is I said to my then girlfriend at the time, I'm I'm going to be a novelist. I'm going to write this book. I'm going to write another. And she did the best thing of all. She didn't laugh. Go write the book. And there's this there's this great thing. It's called a reflective best self-portrait. It's by a professor named Jane Dutton at the University of Michigan studies it. And what she says is when you have someone who tells you that they believe in you, Yeah. and you trust them, you actually start to become

19:16 that person that they believe in. And that's what Miss Spicer was to me. That's what Jane Goodall's mother was to her. It's not just, oh, love your thing and go do it. That's that's nonsense. It's that full commitment nonstop. And and this is the part we leave out is all the failure. Yeah. You remember the first hero story you ever told me? Very first one I carried around with me. No. The first hero story you ever told me was the Wright brothers. Oh yeah. Yeah. Which I had to check it to make sure it was true. And it's this is a story, right? You know it. Every time the Wright brothers would go out to fly their plane, they'd bring extra materials for multiple crashes. Correct. Which means every time they went out, they knew they would fail. Correct. And they would crash and rebuild and crash and rebuild and that's why they took

20:02 off. And Simon, I remember you telling me that story 20 years ago almost. I love that story. Yeah. I want my sons to hear that story. I want my daughter to hear that story. I want everyone to know if you dream big. That's the cheesy part. You work hard. Cheesy part. But you have that side order of stubbornness, you could do anything in this world. The stories I tell you, you've heard all the good parts, right? I told you Nick got on the dolphin. I wrote my book. You inspired me. Ameilia Hart flew her plane. But what what I include in every kids book I do is their failures. Yeah. Every time I show you how many elections Abraham Lincoln lost, you know, over half a dozen. I show you George Washington when he lost his election. I show you, you know, the Wright brothers when they failed when we do our show. Every single and that's the part we always leave out. Yeah. And the thing and that's the mo to me and that's

20:49 but that's the human part, right? Because I think one of the weaknesses when successful people go on the speaking circuit or write their books about what it takes to succeed, they tell you here's what I did and I had grit and I had this and I'm pursued and I never quit. But the reality is we don't learn the lessons from them telling us what they did right. Where we feel human and feel that we can where we can actually learn is when they tell us where it failed, where exploded when when they did want to quit. We do a huge disservice to our heroes where we build them and we carve them out of, you know, granite and we and we worship at their feet and we make giant statues of them. They become these lowercase G gods where everything went well and everything went great. And that to me, we do a huge disservice. What I do in every story that I've told you even here today, yeah, is we leave out all those other the vital the most vital part. That's

21:35 why I told you at the beginning how bad it went for my family. Not to get your sympathy, but to show you that even from there, you can get out. Even when you when your family doesn't even know what an honors class is, you can get there. And and I think those are the more important parts of the story than the finale. The finale is the useless part. The most important part is that struggle in there. And and the thing that also happens is every single one of them keeps be keeps changing and transforming. That's the other key part. They put away their fear and yes they they believe in and become that best version of themselves, you know, but I think it's the only immutable fact. Yeah. Is you should never be immutable. Those are the the the the DNA cells of what gives the soul the soul, right?

22:21 It's the humility. It's the failure. It's those things. My my daughter, the best thing I've ever heard about AI comes from my collegeage daughter who's brilliant. And she said to me, "Dad, because I I she said, "Let's try and write a book with AI. Let's see if we can do it for you." So, I'm up for it. I want to learn from someone younger than me. So, we put I put it all in and it was a book that I had already written so I could actually test it. So, I I knew what the book was. I wanted to see could it reproduce one of my kids books. And the new one that's coming is I'm Simone Biles. I know her story. I'm like, "Okay, computer, have at it." And it starts writing and it tells me all the things. I give it actually my research that I've done. I said, "I'm going to give you everything I have so you have the same exact thing and write it in the style of Brad." Write in my style and my listen AI has been fed on my books. It knows exactly how to do it. It knew how to outline everything when it did the first outline. In one second, it did the

23:07 outline of the book perfectly. I said, "Great. Keep going. I want to see what you can do." And I gave it, you know, all the things that I found important. What I bolded, I said, "These are the important things." So, it even knew what I thought was going to be vital. And there's this one moment where Simone Biles, when she's a young girl, she goes to live with her grandparents. Her mom, you know, she's in foster care for a while. Her mom can't take care of her. She goes to live with her grandparents. And there's this human moment where you where she realizes this is my new mom and dad. My grandparents have taken me in. They've taken my sister in. They're going to be our new parents now. And I said to the to the to chat GPT, I'm like, I want you to, you know, focus on that moment and make me really feel it. And the computer says, yes, I'll make you feel it. And so I said, they say she

23:52 moves in with the grammar said, no, no, make me really feel it. And so then the computer says the grandfather muses her hair and says now you live with us now. I'm like yeah but that never happened. Says ' right you're right. All of Brad Meltzer's books always show you the real story. They don't just tell it to you. It shows you with real emotion. I said great do that. And I said and it keeps going. We love you Simone. That happened. I'm like yeah but that's just a thing. Where's the get deeper? Go deeper. Right. And what I wrote in my book is this moment where the grandmother is just braiding Simone's hair and that feeling of her touching her hair and having someone take care of you. You're sitting in her lap. There's nothing being said with the grandmother, but she knows here's a person who's taking care of me. It's one of the most important p parts of the whole book.

24:38 It's not the gymnastics of the gold. The computer could not get there. And my daughter finally said to me, you know why, Dad? because AI doesn't have taste. And I was like, that's it. It can't AI doesn't have taste and AI doesn't have feelings and it has no soul, right? That's it. And it's I kept saying, go to the part where it's brushing the hair and all it kept saying is it brushes the hair. I'm like, go longer. Does it keeps brushing it? It could not get to the to that feeling. Why? Because it never felt anyone do that. It can't feel love. I will not finish one of my kids books when I get to the end. I mean, the number one thing people tell me about my kids books when I get letters from parents is your book made me cry. And why? My the last pages of the book are always the inspirational big moment. I will not write it and say it's done

25:25 until either and I sit with my wife, she comes into my office and I read her what I'm writing and if she sits there, she's like, "No, it's not it." And I say another one, "No, it's not it." Here's what it is. No, it's not it. Until she or I are crying. Yes. truly tears in our eyes have to well up and then the book is done. Yes. And you can't create that on AI. Maybe one day you will. Maybe I'll get better at, you know, just doing it. But I have the process of me getting there is not me going, what are the words are going to make other people cry, right? It's making myself cry with a memory from myself that goes, I'm not Simone Biles. I'm never winning the gold medal, but I know what it's like to be alone. I know what it's like to have my own mental health struggles. I know what it's like to deal with things and go, "I'm done." I know what it's like for the world to look at me and say, "You

26:11 did that one. You did a crap job." And have yourself goes back It goes back directly. It goes back directly to uh what you said before which I think is the ultimate test of whether you've got an idea which is when uh somebody else believed in you in your idea you know and I've always believed like for entrepreneurs or idea people which is you don't have an you don't you are not the judge if you have a good idea or not you have a good idea if at least one person goes that's a good idea not you showed audition for American Idol honey because you're wonderful and I love you but like Can you sing that song again? Because every time you do, it gives me goosebumps. People always come to me and say, tell me about how I can write a book. I wrote or I wrote a book and what should I do with it now? And I said, give it to five friends. And they say,

26:57 why? And I said, just give it to five friends who really love you, who will be honest with you. I said, they're going to all give you five different opinions, and they're all going to tell you different things, and none of them will be right. I said, but you're going to get to the point if they say, oh yeah, I liked your book. Okay, your book's not that great. Yeah. You got to get to the point where they go, I didn't think it was going to be as good as it was. That's the test you have to pass. And if you pass that test where they're like a little bit in shock of what you did cuz they want to read more, I was going to try to go to bed, but I couldn't. It's it's what you're saying, right? I want to hear that song again. Play it for me again. And when you get that reaction from your friends, now you got a book. Now you got a book or an idea or a business or whatever business or whatever it might be. By the way, and and if you get that and this goes right back to all these people who had someone

27:43 in their life, all these quote unquote ordinary people who became extraordinary, they all had at least one person in their life, obvious you very often a mother, but at least one person in their life who said, "You have to do this. This is this is actually worth doing. This is good." For most people, it's that or it's someone saying, "You can't do it. You can get just as much power." That woman who said to me from Hogandas that said, "You're going to be here for the rest of your miserable life." that woman. I used to I used to re really be upset with her and say, you know, I'm going to, you know, I I'm so upset by that. I would I kind of internalized it and I I would say, I don't think care about her, but I totally cared about her, but I used it as rocket fuel. The problem is is here's the challenge I have with which is I don't dispute that it's that it's rocket fuel, right? But at what point what what

28:29 level of success do you have to achieve to be um validated? You know, like how how far do you have to go to be like, "Ha, I showed you, but then what?" Then then then what's the next motivation? And by the way, and then you're and then you're in the worst situation, which is you're never happy. Like you shouldn't be happy. That's why I think you need the person who says you're on to something because that's infinite. That's right. That that never go. And listen, the first person who does that is you, right? Instead of a traditional host red ad, I invited Ryan Bartlett, the founder of our sponsor, True Classic, to sit down for a conversation. We call this an ad with authenticity. We went out for lunch, that's how I met you. And in one lunch, you became one of my favorite entrepreneurs. Wow. Tell me a specific story from a time in your career that you absolutely loved being a

29:15 part of whatever it is you were doing that if everything in your career went like this one thing, you'd be the happiest person alive. One of the most impactful decisions we made was the $40 million bet, which was absolutely insane looking back. What was that? It was for inventory. You're going to buy $40 million worth of inventory? Yeah. With no demand forecasting, like nothing. just a hunch and a whim and a do we believe in ourselves? And I just remember looking around the table at this scrappy group of entrepreneurs that were all very young, by the way, too. We were just way out of our league in terms of like the companies we were up against. And I just remember walking away from that conversation so proud that we were able to be so risky but also have the confidence to execute on

30:02 it because had we not it just would not have been what it has become. You have to take some unbelievable bets that just do not make sense on paper sometimes. And sure enough, we weren't able to sell through on that 40 million the way we wanted to. And we had to make moves and figure it out. So, it didn't work. It did not work. It did not work. And yet, you are telling me the story because I love that we all were together in it and we all made the decision and we all felt good about it. We all believed in each other so much. Who's your favorite superhero? Uh, it depends what they It's either Superman or Batman. I mean, and you know, listen, I love I love Batman because every day Batman's one goal is

30:48 to stop crime, right? And every day he knows he's going to fail. He will never stop crime, but he's going to try. And he's going to fail tomorrow, and he's going to try again the day after that. He's going to fail, and he's going to keep going. So I that's that's that that do not stop. It's the Wright brothers, right? But Superman to me, the most important part of the story is not Superman. The most important part of the story is Clark Kent because we're all Clark Kent and we all know what it's like to be boring and ordinary and wish we do something incredibly beyond ourselves. And that's why, you know, after Superman came out and Superman is this, you know, he's it's 1938. Hitler's encroaching and and and World War II is encroaching on our shores. And two Jewish 17-year-old kids are the ones who come up with the idea of Superman.

31:34 They're not popular. They're not good-looking, but they give us something to believe in. And that's why he's looks like an American flag flying around. And it sells a million copies. And no one can understand why. So what what does everyone immediately do is they start making more heroes that have capes and that look like him and have muscles and they start selling but not nothing sells like Superman. And why? Because they don't have Clark Kent. They're missing that key ingredient. The key ingredient is not the heat vision or the powers or the things or lifting a car over your head. But it's that part of man I wish I could do something that's beyond ourselves. And the key to that is of course his parents, right? It's mom and pop Kent. these two ordinary people. Yeah. Who teach him what makes Superman is not this. Yeah. But this. It's not his muscle, it's his heart. Yeah. And we don't see ourselves in Superman. We see

32:19 ourselves in Clark. I never I'll never be Superman. I'll never lift a car over my head. But it doesn't mean I can't fight for good and do something right, especially by other people. Like especially as someone who has had so much right done for me. It's so funny that you love Superman because of the ordinary guy part of his personality and you love Batman. It's just it's just a guy. It's a guy who inherited a bunch of money. That's what I love. And I don't care what some people love Batman because they want to be the millionaire with a butler and the toys. Keep all that stuff. I want to be Batman because I know what it's like that I you I will not be stopped. Yeah. You can I you will not stop me. I I hand me 24 rejection letters. Hand me 28 rejection. Hand me 50 rejection letters. I will keep going. That's the part that will forever be the wish fulfillment to me is that no matter how many barriers you put in front of

33:04 me, I'll be there tomorrow. and then I'll be there tomorrow. I don't care how much you beat me up, I'll be there tomorrow again. The thing that you and I have in common, and it's partially just because we're nerds, but it's also it's it's something I think it's something bigger than that, which is you and I have decorated our homes, our desks, our offices since we were little kids with the stuff that inspires us, the little Superman. Uh I I've had a little Superman on a You want to see the one that's on my desk right here? I got two of them right here. I've got and I've and I've got like my keyring is a is a is a is a Captain America shield, you know, and I have these things and it's like again it's partially nerd culture of course, but they to your point they are reminders these talismans that you know the little Batman symbol. I used to have Batman symbols all over the place

33:50 and again not because he was a superhero, not because of the gadgets, not because of the million dollars. It's because it was a it was just a guy who woke up every day and said, "I'm going to do my part." I always think when it comes to heroes, and I I write a lot about heroes obviously, but you don't get the heroes you want, you get the heroes you need. And I think that you and I in in some little back part of our brain, we still need those things. We still need that reminder of inspiration. We still need that reminder of hope. I I certainly need it. And and I know that I now get to bring them and I get to write them and I write Superman. I write Batman, I write Spider-Man. That's fun. But I feel like I get more out of it for me. Yeah. Than and and what they've given me than anything that I've given them by far. And I think that those heroes, especially in this world we're

34:37 in today, they're not, you know, I know for some people, oh, they're fun to watch and they're escapism and that's fine, but that's not why superheroes take off. They take off because, you know, the best stories in the whole world are never a plot that you like or a character you like or those. They don't tell you anything about that. The best stories tell you something about yourself. Yeah, of course. You see in that person something that says I know what that's like. Uh, who's your super favorite villain? That's a good one. Um, it's funny. It's never Galactis or like these, you know, big ones. I mean, I love Darth Vader just because he's the the human side of him, right? That's an epic, you know, it's it's an opera. Um, I'm trying to think who I've written

35:23 because that'll reveal quickly who I like. I mean, I I I mean, I do like Lex Luthther on some level, but it's funny. I don't even care if as you say it, I'm like, beside Darth Vader, who takes a hero turn, I don't ever look at the villains and say, "I love that person." That's much harder for me. Oddly, it's funny now. I've never thought that about myself. You figured that out. I I don't care. The villains never make I never I don't have that side of me that's like I wish I could I can associate with that person. No one's motivations make sense to me like because the backstory of the villain I hate to say this but the backstory of the villain is a little bit like you in the ice cream store with the woman who says you can't like they they've all got a chip on their shoulder. You know Lex Luthther's original motivation was that Superman made him lose his hair. So, I mean,

36:09 which was a silly silver age thing, but they was like, "Superman took my hair and I will get my revenge, and now we figured it out." But what I think is more interesting about the villains in comics, and this is what I study more, is that the best villains have to be the opposite foil to the hero. It took, you know, the Joker has always been Batman's greatest villain, but it took Chris Nolan and his brother, right, and and Goyer to figure out that Batman is order and the Joker is chaos. Yeah, that's a brilliant take that they are just, you know, the cliché say opposite ends of the same coin, but they're perfect for that reason. And and eventually the comic book community was like, that's right. And that's why Captain America is, you know, that American ideal and the Red Skull is the Nazi. That's the

36:55 most obvious easy one. But the best ones that go against each other are exact opposites. And they finally figured out for Lex Luthther and Superman, there are people who are like, "Yeah, having him lose his hair is stupid." The reason why Lex Luthther is much more interesting is if Superman, you know, is this ideal and has all this stuff and and Lex Luthther is that pettiness of us that says, "Why do you need something like that?" You know, I'm the best there is. You don't need Why I don't like the Hugandas story. Yeah, because you don't you don't like the revenge part of it. There's nothing there's nothing. It's a revenge thing and you spend your whole life Oh, I agree. I I agree with you. I That woman drove me when I was a kid, but as I was older, I was like, that doesn't matter because it can't matter. That then that's just an anchor I'm holding on to. I had that person in my life. Uh it was my first job and the boss that I

37:42 had would um we were a young team and my boss would have these I like monthly meetings or I don't remember maybe they were weekly I don't remember this is my first job my first boss right and her exact words in my career development meeting I kid you not were you have no talent and I said nothing and she said nothing. And I said, "I can write pretty well." She goes, "You don't write well for business." And I thought it was absolutely hilarious, right? Because you had no respect for because it was so ridiculous. Like if she had said, "You only have one talent." That would have

38:28 been devastating. Right. Right. No, but it was so absurd. It was so absurd to say no talent in the world. Like Like But that's also why it didn't beat you up, right? because it was so absurdest, right? That's the the woman in the Hogenda story is that to me, right? I don't respect her, so I don't put any weight to it. So, I'm just going to be like, I'm going to do my thing. But I didn't even think about until years later how much it bothered me. Right. But but in the moment, I was like, stupid lady, whatever. I'm going to go do my thing. Right. But I do think Yeah. My editor once in my very first book, my editor, who I respect and love and adore, wrote, "I'm so bored right now. I want to put a gun in my mouth." in giant letters in the in the side column of the thing. And I was devastated by it. And I remember going to them and saying like, "Do you

39:13 hate the book or do you like the book and then they were like, "Oh, no, no. I was, you know, I'm just I'm just trying to get you motivated." I'm like, "That's a terrible way to motivate." That's a terrible way to motivate somebody. Terrible. But, you know, you you move past, especially somebody who's supposed to be in your corner, right? Who bought the book? Who bought the book? I still tease him about I'm like, "You almost crushed me that day." But this is I think this is important. This is important. This is an important little little piece here, which is we will all bumble and fumble through life. And people who disagree with us or don't like us or think we're stupid or think our ideas are stupid will tell us in most unsavory ways, you have no talent. You're going to be working here for the rest of your life. You're not going to go anywhere. And I think it's very important for us because it it does sting especially if you're in a dark moment especially if you got a if you're feeling a little insecure that day or that month like it becomes val that that

40:00 negativity can really validate whatever negative self-image we might have in that moment but I think it's really important not to turn it into spite and to turn it into motivation because I think that's as I said that's I think that's villain motivation right I agree oh and that's why I can't it's so funny you're so good at kind of putting that thing that's why I can't do it right the villain motivation doesn't work for me it doesn't And I think it's important for us in those moments to be able to sit back like take a beat and be like that's ridiculous. Well, that's also you what you're really good at is is you never the end is never the the the the glory, right? Like I have I have a friend who who used to say to me, "If I could just get this, then I'll be happy." Yeah. And I'd say and then he would get that thing and he'd say, 'If I could just get this and turn it into a TV show, then I'll be h and I and I

40:45 remember eventually having this hard moment with him and I said, "Let me tell you something. Any sentence that begins, if I can just get blank, then I'll be happy." That's not happiness. Yeah. And what you're so good at and what I think you is it's not about the end result that makes you happy. It's the why you're doing it. Yeah. To get you there. You understand that part, you figure the rest out. I sort of had a back and forth with somebody not too long ago and um and and basically I was I was pushing I was like we got to do more we got to do better like come on come on come on and and you know I said even if we fail it doesn't matter like why won't why won't you push yourself and she said because I don't like to fail and you don't either she said to me I don't like to fail and you don't either she said to me and I literally said you're wrong I said I am

41:33 if you look at my whole life. My whole life I think of myself as a failure. I said because I I have achieved this one or two things in my life have gone as I had hoped but almost everything has fallen short of my desires, dreams or ambitions. Almost all of it. Right? And so I'm very comfortable in failure because my dreams are bigger than my ability. I I you told me when we met that first time all those years ago, you know, you told me my why and then you gave me my house. You know, one I remember that I took with me I'll never forget is you said to me, Brad, the struggle matters for you. Yeah. I was like, what does that mean? You said the struggle matters. It says if you do

42:18 something, you don't want to do it again. What you like is the struggle. You like when it's really hard, when you have to really push through it. You need that struggle to go. Yeah. So, when I got my 23rd and 24th rejection letter, here's the story I never tell. is they were supposed to be I got 24 rejection letters, but the 23rd and 24th one I thought were going to be acceptance letters. And my agent said to me, they're going to sell I had interviews with the final two people. They said they like the book and they're going to buy the book and they're going to call me at 4:00, so be by your phone and I'm going to tell you how much the book sold for. And I was in law school debt and college debt. I had debt acrewing all over and she's like, "I'm going to tell you how we're going to get out of debt because we're going to have a bidding war on your first book." Great. And I sit by the phone because back in the day you sit by a phone. It

43:04 was pre- cell phones. And I picked up the phone all excited to find out how I was going to get out of debt. And I'll never forget my agent. I picked up the phone. She said, "Sorry, kiddo." And I was my heart just sank down. And here's the thing. I don't I've never told you this, Simon, is every day that I sit down to write, I replay that moment. I literally re That's my ritual is I replay the worst moment of my career. I picture the phone I was holding. It was a see-through one where you could see the wires inside because that was high-tech back then. I picture the the desk and the little swivel lamp on my left. The bed that had just a box spring, a bed, not even a headboard, nothing because we were had no money. I look over this. It was a a concrete uh over the balcony of a concrete empty parking lot. I see a fire station with

43:50 three doors. I count the doors. One, two, three. And then I say those words, "Sorry, kiddo." Because I never ever want to think I made it. I never ever want to think that I'm I never want to be not thankful for this life I have. I never ever want to think I figured it all out because the moment I do that, I'm done and my hunger is gone. And for 27 years now, every day I sit down to write, "Sorry kiddo, sorry kiddo. Sorry kiddo." And to me, when you use those moments, Yeah. like that failure, that struggle, man, I think it's we leave that out. You have to answer this question. Yes. You've written, let me do some quick math, 78 books. That's ridiculous. No, that is ridiculous. That number is a

44:38 stupid number. Like, if you had wrote in 13, I'd be like, whoa, 78 books is absolutely I can't. Anyway, let me get to my question. 78 books. You've written 78 books. You have to answer this question. Which is the best? Which is your favorite? Actually, that's two different questions. Which is the best and which is your favorite? Yeah. No. Um, it's fair. The best one. I still think my first book is my best one because I didn't know anyone would see it. Yeah. That's why it's the best. The reason why you love people's first novel that you ever read from and then you're like, "Oh, I like the first one." is because when you're writing for the first time Yeah. It's like when you when you did your first, you know, your your first

45:23 talk, you didn't know millions of people were going to see it. So, you just like put it out there. You hoped it, but you didn't know. But once it's out there Yeah. and now you've received the criticism and the raves and the and the love. But once you know someone's watching, there's some little molecular thing that changes at that molecular something changes in your in your little DNA. Something changes in that in that quilt in your brain. And and it's just a it's a little bit of protection, a little bit of safety, a little bit of you're not getting all of me. I put out all of me last time and I took a beating for it. And and I think that that protection will always forever ruin art, right? It will forever take it away and make it less when you protect yourself. But to answer your question, I then when I turned 50 years old, I have my midlife crisis

46:11 was I I think in life we can always keep doing what we do, right? You do what you do. I do what I do. We can continue doing it and hopefully people will pay you to do it and show up and that's great and that's fine. But at 50 years old, my midlife crisis was how do I actually get better? I've been doing this for 20some years. How do you actually get better? And I was like, I I I I'm not comfortable just doing what I do. I've read a million thriller writers and they, you know, once you get to their seventh or eighth or ninth book, you're like, they just phon it and it's the same thing. I'm like, I I'm terrified to be that person. So, I'm like, how do I get better? So, what I did is I went back and looked at all my books. Yeah. And I asked that question you just asked me. Which are actually the best? And I'm not talking about which sold the most. Which are actually the best ones? Yeah. Yeah. I understand there's a difference. And I singled it out and I said, "Now I figured these three." I said, "I got these three. What

46:57 do they have in common?" And they were the three best characters. Which which are the three? Which of the three? Uh it was the um the 10th Justice, the first council, and um the book of fate at the time. And I said, "Those have the best characters in them." Yeah. And then I was like, I was working on a new book called The Escape Artist. And I had this story for this great new character named Zigan and this character Nola. And I said, you know what? Don't start the book until you have Nola. I'm at the point in my career where I could build the boat while I'm selling the boat. I can start the book and I'll figure it out as I'm going. I'm like, don't do it. Wait an extra six months. Build this female lead character. When I came out with the book, it was the number one selling book I've ever done. And why?

47:42 Because I finally went backwards and actually was like, "Don't be afraid to compete with your old self. Be honest again. Show yourself again and don't worry what anyone thinks." And what I realized is Zigg is this character who believes if you're a good person, you put good in the world, you'll the world will be a better place. It's a beautiful idea, completely naive idea, but an idea worth fighting for. Yeah. And Nola is this character who believes if you know what, if you want the world to make sense, you got to grab it by the throat and force it to make sense. Especially when you see injustice, you got to fight harder than you've ever fought before. That's also an idea worth fighting for. And I've now written three books with these characters. They're my biggest characters by far. And what I finally realized after a thousand pages with them is I'm not writing characters. I'm

48:30 just writing myself. Yeah, I firmly believe to my core that if you are a good person and put good in the world, the world will be a better place. I'm Zigg. But I also believe, especially when I look around the world as it is today, that if you don't fight for justice, right? You got to fight harder than you've ever fought before when you see some injustice, when you see someone being hurt, when you see something that's done wrong. And it's just me trying to figure out which side of me is right. And of course, they're both right. You know, the world takes love and war. And that's my that's the one I but but and and so that's the one I think is the best. I still think the best thing I probably have ever written though is the Make Magic commencement address and you helped me with that one. You you were you know the person. But I never ever had anything that I've written get a reception like that in a

49:17 there's not many people who give a commencement address that then it becomes a book. Right. I mean I knew I mean again you're from you know Maria Shrivever was was blessed. I don't know Maria Shrivever. I don't know Katie Kirk. All these people were blasting this thing out and people strangers were contacting family members of mine after I gave the address at the University of Michigan saying, "I want the text of that speech. Can I have that?" What you said, you know, about empathy and about kindness. I want that for my kid. Can you send me that? And I've been doing this 27 years and no one's ever contacted my sister and found her unlisted phone number and said, "Can you get me? I saw your brother in a stadium of 70,000 people today. Can you get me what he said about empathy and kindness? And I was like, something just happened and I don't know what happened. I know what happened. I know what happened. I

50:02 know what happened. You have gone from being a New York Times bestselling author multiple times over. You are now Brad Meltzer an influencer. God, the worst. That's why I love you because you know the nonsense of it all. Look, some people don't know what we're talking about. Okay. Sorry. Sorry. Okay. So we so we should say you gave a you gave a commencement address to the University of Michigan which is your alma mater is my I went to Michigan and there's 70,000 people in Michigan Stadium. It it is crazy but I was focused on one I was focused on one cuz my son was graduating that day. Okay. And he's in the 14th row and I'm looking just at my I can see him and and I'm giving the speech and you know how it is when you give a talk. you know that there are moments where you

50:47 you hope you know where the laugh is going to come and where the awe is going to come and where the claps are going to come but this was something brand new I'd never delivered it I was talking about magic and making magic and that there when you talk to magicians uh there are some things that can't be explained and when you talk to magicians there are four types of magic tricks and you put aside illusion and escapes is four types of tricks one you make something appear two you make something disappear three you take one thing and you switch places with another and the fourth magic trick is you got to take one thing and turn it into something else which is the hardest trick of all transformation and I talk about in the speech you got to make some what you make appear what you make disappear and I get to the third trick which is I say we have to make two things switch places I say here let's talk about empathy and I say cruelty and venom have become

51:34 sport in our culture and making fun of other people has become sport in our culture but cruelty and venom aren't signs of strength they're signs of weakness and petty insecurity and what takes strength is switching places with someone else and showing kindness and showing empathy. That's what empathy is, is switching places with someone else, looking looking through their eyes. And I felt 70,000 people started going bananas and I didn't know what happened. I'm trying to like get control of the crowd because, you know, you can kind of like talk through a crowd and like surf the wave. And I couldn't. And I remember going, "What was that? What? Something happened here and I can't put my finger on it." And my wife said to me after, "You you tapped a vein. you didn't know was there. And I think right now as a culture, we're starving for empathy. We're starving for kindness. And and I

52:20 happened to in this speech talk about it. This this magic trick was was this focus on empathy and kindness is what just took off. And then all these people started asking for it and publishers started saying we got to do a book about it. And and that book came out. But I never saw anything that I wrote get a reaction like that. You helped me with that speech. I I I remember calling you and and and you were helping me and I and and I love what's funny is when I gave the speech, I said your name. I said like I said like Simon Synynic says, you know, it's full commitment. That's what magic is. It's full commitment to the bit or it all falls apart. And when you said that part to me that Brad, you need full commitment or it all falls apart. I was like, that's what it is. My wife said, you know, you you're in front of 70,000 people. You can't practice. You're doing a magic trick in real time and you're doing

53:06 exactly what the speech is about, which is full commitment to the bit. You're going to go for it no matter what. Improvise. Whatever happens, there were protesters. There's everything else. You're going to figure it out. And it was me being my truly authentic, real self, telling stories I've never told, telling this is the lowest moment of my family's existence. This is something I was embarrassed to share. This is the person who got to me. And of course, that's what connects is the pure honesty. and and and you taught me this too. Magic is never something you do for yourself. It's a gift you give other people, right? That's what magic is. And by the way, no one does it for themselves. And that's always been your magic trick. Your magic trick has always been your stuff is always for someone else. That's the best part of you. That's why I love this is unfair to people listening to this podcast. You and I just sort of No, but but here's

53:54 the thing is I'll go on 50 other podcasts and you'll do 50 more. But this is as honest as we get, right? Because we know each other for so long. There's no artifice here. This is how we I mean we were talking before this podcast started and we were talking like this. This is what every time we get on the phone because we we never get on the phone for sure but every time we get on the phone it's always the same thing which is and it's the same thing from the start. You always leave me. I know your mission is to inspire. I still got the original coin but like I just feel better about the universe. It's not about myself. It's not about but I feel like I got hope. You know it is it is hope man. That is what you give. I feel the same about you. Thank you for thank you for teaching us. Thank you for showing us. Thank you for guiding us. You're the best. A bit of optimism is brought to you by the Optimism Company and is lovingly produced by our team, Lindseay

54:40 Garbinius, David Jaw, and Devon Johnson.

…