Stanford Psychologist: 7 Small Things That Make a Huge Difference in How You Feel

0:00 Today on the Mel Robbins podcast, how to feel like yourself again, get your spark back and bring more joy into your everyday life with worldrenowned expert on stress, resilience, and joy, Stanford University's Dr. Kelly Mcdonal. Dr. Kelly McGonagal, welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. >> Thank you. It's great to be here. I'd love for you to start by just setting the record straight about what we're going to talk about and how the person who's here with us is going to feel when they're done and how their life might change. Because you hear the word joy and you think, "Oh my gosh, is this a to-do list for being happy?" >> Yeah. >> But what are we going to talk about based on your research about how to feel

0:46 like yourself again and to use this science of joy to do that? My core hope is that when you wake up in the morning, you want to be alive. You're happy to be alive. You feel like you have things to look forward to. You know that what you do matters. That who you are matters. That your existence in the world is a good thing. And that no matter what challenges you're facing, that you can handle them. And even in those challenges, it's possible to laugh. It's possible to feel close to others. It's possible to have things to look forward to. It's possible to do things every day that make life better for yourself or

1:31 that make the world better. Um, psychologists sometimes use this term existential courage. And because that's what I really hope comes out of this conversation is that you feel more courageous to create a life of meaning and a stronger capacity to appreciate not just what's good in your life but also what's good in you >> and what's good in others and what's good in the world. My favorite thing that you just said was this ability to appreciate not just what's good in your life, but what's good in you. Yeah. Can you expand on that? I think like everything that I do, I'm trying to be an antidote to despair. And there's a particular type of despair that people are comfortable talking

2:17 about, which is looking out at the world and feeling like the world is falling apart. there's so much, you know, wrong with the state of the world and other people are so disappointing. And I think people have a harder time uh admitting or recognizing sometimes we wonder what's good about us, whether what we do makes a difference, if our existence, you know, has a reason, if if other people care or even know that we're here. And I think that when we are better able to recognize and trust the better parts of ourselves or even just the parts about ourselves that bring us joy and we're more comfortable sharing that with the world, it's a really it's a brave act and it's a transformative act.

3:03 I had this moment. Oprah calls it a light bulb aha moment when you were talking because I've never heard anybody so simply and profoundly explain that there are two types of despair and discouragement that you experience in life. I love that you have just aimed our focus at something that's hard to talk about, which is the despair quietly and the discouragement that we feel often alone as we wonder as we lie awake at night. And I suppose that where we're going is, and I know where we're going because I've read your next blockbuster bestseller and I love your research and

3:50 your work is that you're going to shine a light on the interior life that you have. Dr. McDonald, what is the definition of joy? >> Let me start by something that is very easy for most people to understand. I'm going to give you the opposite of joy first. >> Okay, >> I've learned through experience to walk my way into joy. So, imagine, you know, the feeling when you get bad news or something goes wrong or someone says something that hurts you and immediately it's like a punch to the stomach. Your heart sinks. You feel heavier. You feel more pessimistic. you just immediately feel worse about yourself or worse about life and it often happens in a flash but it can linger. It has this residue. So joy is the opposite of that. It's when something goes right or you notice something wonderful or something good

4:36 happens or someone says something nice and you immediately your heart lifts. You feel lighter. Your your gut is telling you this is a moment that matters. You feel like you can breathe. And no matter how small small or big the moment is, you have a more positive outlook. You feel better about yourself and better about life. That's joy. And you know, I've asked um thousands of people to tell me like what's something that brought you joy in the last 24 hours. And also people have published research from all over the world. It's so consistent what brings people joy. And I think sometimes knowing what the categories are also helps people understand what I'm talking about. >> Yeah. What are the categories? Number one is feeling connected or close to someone. And the one of the easiest

5:22 examples of that is people will tell me about a moment when they laughed with someone. And that just in that moment it's a biological reality. You are connected. You feel close to someone. Uh the number two is when you do something that makes you feel good about yourself and who you are. It could be that you made progress on a goal and you got good news. Or it could be that you did something that you've been putting off or it could be you did something that's aligned with your values. It could be you helped someone or someone tells you that you did something that made things, you know, better. And then we have the third category is noticing something wonderful or beautiful in the world. It's all in nature. It's amazing how many joy reports I get from people. I heard a bird sing. I I I just be like, why why are there so many birds in these

6:08 joy reports? But people in that moment feel uh connected to the good in life itself. >> And then um the next biggest category is moments where you are enjoying something that you love whether it's an activity or uh you know that that thing that you love beyond reason or you're just in the moment doing something you enjoy and you're able to to feel in that moment or be in that moment. Can you put this into context for why this truly does matter? And it's critical for your life and your meaning in your life. >> Yeah. I mean, people sometimes hear the word joy and they think that what we're talking about is that like moment when everything in your life is perfect. No problems, no pain, nothing you're

6:53 worried about. And we think that joy is the the emotional reward you get when everything aligns in your life and in the world. And if that isn't true, it's irresponsible or it's foolish or it's naive or it's actually impossible to feel anything that we would call joy. The place that I often think about to start with joy is in that internal like close to home place that even when the world is in chaos, your full humanity is still available to you. And I know this is true because when I teach classes about joy, I often have people joining from war zones who have lost loved ones in war and are being bombed in the middle and they're taking an online class. And what they tell, it's so funny because I will often

7:38 have some students write me and be like, "Isn't it irresponsible or actually like impossible to be talking about joy right now when there's a war going on?" And then someone living in that war will will send a message that I share with the class that says this, "We need joy. this is why we need joy because life is so uncontrollable and so many terrible things are happening and they're experiencing this thing that is true for all of us that even in that context there's a part of you who can still find things to laugh about. There's a part of you who wants to connect with others and is absolutely capable of it. There is a part of you who is capable of noticing beauty in the world and putting beauty in the world that that you don't need to wait for external circumstances to align

8:24 to experience those parts of yourself. Wait a minute. I just saw something and I want to give this back to you to see if I'm tracking. So if you have moments in life where there's external forces that cause you to feel despair and that then makes you feel despair internally. When it comes to the positive experiences of joy, of love, of beauty, those things are external in your life. whether it's weddings or puppies or sunsets or dancing, you know, at a concert with your friends to your favorite band. And of course, that impacts how you feel internally. I just understood why

9:10 the science of joy matters so much because if the signaling from the world is overwhelmingly negative, you're going to feel internally so heavy and negative. And in those moments, tapping into signals that there's still good, there's still happiness, that there's still a reason to move forward, that there's still something you can do. That is what balances you out when life gets very heavy, when the world is very heavy. This isn't like jazz hands and happiness and, you know, something on the surface. This is deep within us. Is that what you're saying? The core function of joy is to make you want to be alive. Joy would not exist if life

9:56 were not hard. We wouldn't need it actually. Um joy is a particular type of uplift that pulls you up from when you're feeling stuck or sad or hopeless. And that is why you have the capacity to be uplifted by things that are good. It's why you have the capacity in a moment when you're laughing with someone else and your brains start to synchronize and you're you feel connected to someone. Your body and brain are wired to have that moment of closeness because the reality >> is that it's hard to be human. >> And you're here to remind us >> Yeah. >> that we have wiring in our bodies, brains, and resources in us >> to tap into >> this fundamental need. You said the core function of joy. >> Yeah. is to make you want to live, to

10:42 push through, to keep going, to like evolve and grow. And that's a beautiful way to think about this. >> It's a survival instinct. >> I've never heard anybody say that, >> but it makes sense because like if there's too much negative input, of course, you're going to give up. So, I often collect these joy reports where I just ask people, "What's something recent that brought you joy?" And then I collect some of the ones that I think would surprise people and some of the ones that really stood out to me that I received recently. Um, one was taking care of a spouse who was going through chemotherapy and it was messy and gross. >> And she said, "I think I could do this for the rest of my life because I just I feel so much love and like like what I'm doing matters." And then another was um

11:31 a student who talked about um being in a bomb shelter and talking with neighbors and saying that he had never felt so close to other human beings as he had in that moment and that it was one of the most joyful experiences of his life. Now you nobody wants that experience. Nobody would describe that as a happy moment or a positive moment. But are it's things we have this capacity and actually all of those were examples of the most common source of joy which is to feel close or connected to others and also to feel like who you are matters. Those are beautiful examples and it also makes your definition of joy which is the core function is to make you want to live

12:18 >> really powerful. I want to read to you some of the things that listeners in the 194 countries that watch and listen to this show wrote in about. And maybe as you're watching right now or you're taking uh Dr. McDonald and I on a walk or in the car or you're have us with you as you're busy working, maybe you feel some of these things. Maybe people in your life feel these things. I don't feel like myself. Nothing excites me. I feel flat. I am always waiting for something bad to happen. I'm tired of feeling exhausted all the time. >> Mhm. When you hear that, what do you hear?

13:06 I hear something that's very easy to relate to. It's hard to be human. And I the first thing I want to say is it makes a lot of sense to feel that way as a response to life. And also it's not a a fixed permanent state. You know, your brain is hardwired to find meaning or make meaning. Your nervous system is primed to connect with people. And even at the level of your muscles, your muscles can manufacture and secrete something called hope molecules that when you just literally engage with life using your body that travel through your bloodstream to your brain and act like an anti-depressant. There are so many resources we have, you know, and we have the will to connect, the will to find

13:51 meaning, the will to celebrate, the will to experience pleasure even in dark moments. And um these are these are parts of yourself that you can learn to harness. Now, is the research that you're about to share with us, is that the pathway to making the hard moments dayto-day easier? >> The research that I focus on is the the resources you already have because you're a human being. >> Okay? And part of that's going to be your body. Part of it's going to be your brain. Part of it is your attention, which is a resource that we can use and train. Part of it's going to be instincts that we can harness. Having agency is the opposite of feeling like there's nothing you can do to to change a situation, to make things better, to get closer to what you want, to help

14:37 people you care about. That sense that there's nothing I can do. I don't see any way forward or out. And I think the most beautiful thing about human nature is that you know some part of us wants to survive and to survive we need things like meaning and hope and connection and so we do have all of these resources. So the good news is Dr. McDonald, as I was listening to you, there were seven things that you have right in front of you, that you have the ability, and you're going to teach us how to use as free resources to take control of where you are and to start feeling more like yourself and better >> and to help the people in your life feel that way, too. Amazing. You said the body, the brain, your attention,

15:23 instinct emotions choices relationships. That's seven things. And I think that's such a hopeful an amazing place to begin. So the first resource that we have is our body. >> Yeah. Um two ways I think about the body. I mean one is you can literally place your hands on your body. You're breathing already, right? You can feel that. >> I put my hands on my heart. So even if you have a steering wheel in one hand, you can put it the other hand in your heart. Yeah. I feel breathing. >> You're already breathing. That's your connection to life. Your body is working so hard to support you. Like that could be a very simple way of just connecting to this idea that your body is a resource and you are already here and you have that ability to engage with

16:09 life. So much of your work is around the the research related to stress and you have one of the most popular TED talks of all time on the science of stress and you think that we all completely misunderstand stress. So, Dr. Mcgonal, what do people misunderstand about stress? >> The number one thing people misunderstand about stress is when they feel stressed, they think it is their brain and their body betraying them. And that the most important thing they can do in that moment is to try to feel less stressed. The reality is stress, what you experience as stress is your brain and your body trying to help you in a moment that matters. And every symptom of stress we don't like is your body and

16:56 brain trying to do something that is useful. So feeling your heart racing or sometimes we feel like our blood pressure rising. That is the sign that two things. Your body is trying to give you energy, right? That's literally that's all that is. Your heart is possibly pounding faster or it's it's contracting out more blood with every pump so that you have the energy you need to deal with with whatever matters to you. But also what's really fascinating is in moments of heightened stress, >> your brain actually like prioritizes sensory information from your heart, >> it can actually sense your heart more. So even if your heart wasn't pounding faster, you might feel your heart more clearly. >> And that's a sign that your brain is actually trying to connect you to your

17:42 heart >> to and almost like metaphorically like to help you think about what you care about, to think about who and what matters most. So you know what I would say is that even just that first symptom when you feel your heart racing the first thing you can do is think okay thank you body for trying to give me energy I have the ability that means some part of me believes I can do something here it's not hopeless or I'm not trapped >> and then also thank you brain for telling me trying to bring me back to my heart because in a moment of stress there are a lot of things we can do to cope but one of the best things you can do to cope is to think about who or what matters matters most to you, what you care about, and in this situation, what's the opportunity that I have to do something that reflects who or what I

18:29 care about most? Dr. McDonagle, you talked about something called a hope molecule. What is a hope molecule? >> I'm so glad you asked. Uh, this is one of my favorite scientific findings I've ever come across. Um, you know, you have muscles throughout your body, and if you had asked scientists a couple decades ago, what are your muscles for? uh they would have said, "Well, to move your bones around, right, to stabilize your skeleton." But now we know that your muscles actually are like a pharmacy and they are a part of your body that manufactures all of these chemicals that are good for you. Your muscles can manufacture chemicals that fight cancer cells, that boost your immune system, that are good for your heart, that regulate your blood sugar, that help you build strength, and also they release chemicals that travel to your brain and

19:16 work to help you recover from stress, that make you more resilient, that boost motivation. Again, that are essentially functioning like anti-depressant molecules. And they are released from your muscles when you use them. muscle contraction pushes these hope molecules into your bloodstream where they can then course through your body and arrive at your brain which you know you might actually need those molecules and again the thing that like why I love this we're so used to hearing scientific findings that are like here's how your body can go wrong here's how your body can betray you here are all the things you need to worry about we almost never get the opportunity to experience our own physical being as a resource as something we can trust rather than something we have to fix. Um, and so I

20:04 love this idea that by going for a walk, by, you know, lifting heavy things around your house, by having a dance party in your living room, whatever you want to do to use your body, every time you use your body to engage with life, you're actually accessing this pharmacy that wants to give you a little more courage, a little more resilience, a little more hope. This research comes out of the field of exercise science. So sometimes people think, well, that means I have to go to the gym or I have to do the most strenuous workout that I can imagine. But that's not how your body and brain think about it. Your body just thinks, "Oh, I'm engaged with life, so I better give all my systems something that's going to help me thrive." And when you um are less active, your body

20:50 gives you less of this resource. So going from nothing to anything is the biggest step you can take. >> And then really, I mean, look, we could we could sit here and wave at each other and be releasing. >> It's true. >> I'm like waving right now and I feel like my body shift. Like I I if you've ever had an experience where you're at a wedding and it's very interesting because at really great weddings, the the band just plays a banger out of the gate and you've got somebody pulling people on. But >> that would be me, by the way. I'd be the one being like, "You come here." >> Yeah, I'm like that, too. I'm like, it probably surprises no one that I drag my poor husband, Christopher Robbins, who is deep in conversation, right out onto the dance floor. But >> the we've also had the experience where you're the one on the edge going, "Do I

21:36 join?" >> The second you step on the floor and like just move your shoulders, you feel different. You get pulled into this like force field of connection and joy. And you have to let yourself be pulled in. I always with almost anything that is good for you and I don't mean in like the moral way but in like you actually will feel better if you do it >> almost everyone feels resistance beforehand. You always are going to feel like you have less energy or you're always going to feel more socially anxious and withdrawn because you haven't done the thing yet that's going to help you feel less self-conscious and connected to others. You haven't done the thing yet that's going to give you energy or help you feel braver. And so I always tell people when you get that that clear signal that says I don't know whether I I can or should join in or I

22:23 don't have the energy for this that that is a it's a real signal but it's the opposite of what how you're interpreting it. That is the signal that you need it and you need to draw in some kind of commitment to yourself rather than an in the- moment feeling that says I'm ready or I want to. And for me, what I usually recommend to people is add music. It is one of the simplest ways to change people's. Well, it depends on what I want. Right now, I'm really loving Madonna's Danceria, which you know, it's a it's a fabulous song. The one of the lyrics is about how everybody here is a work of art, which is just a lovely idea. Um, but I like music that I can dance to. Um, but we know that when you listen to a song that you love, it is the fastest

23:10 way to get a burst of dopamine that gives you more motivation and optimism releases endorphins and endockinabonoids that make you feel better. Uh, it is it literally when neuroscientists want to study joy in the brain, the easiest way to do it is to play a song that people love. They say they love. And the same thing if you want people to feel less pain. If someone is going through something painful like a medical procedure and you want them to feel less pain, the easiest way to do it is to have them listen to music they love. It is just it's such a powerful intervention. And so you put on a song that you love and then you do anything that is the opposite of lying down or sitting down if you're physically capable of it. >> Yeah. >> And if you aren't, then just listening to the song makes it activates the part of the brain that thinks it's moving anyways. So you get the benefit. But

23:55 it's, you know, it's the feel better effect. And there's no dose too small. The smallest studies that I found have been like two to three minutes. That's a pretty achievable dose. >> That's one song. >> Yeah, it's less. I mean, well, now Tik Tok era, that is about one song. >> Wow, that's pretty. I love that. Okay. Um, and what my favorite thing, and I noticed this is what my family and my colleagues do is when I get particularly down or stressed or in a bad mood, they're like, "Let's take a walk, Mel. Come on. Let's move the Let's like take a walk cuz I'm not going for a run right now. We don't have time. Walking down the driveway and back up. I'm a different spouse. Yeah. I am a different mother. I am a different Mel Robbins. Walking around the block here by our studios. I come back feeling >> like different.

24:42 >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Okay. And it's for some of the reasons we've talked about. I mean, first of all, you got those hope molecules going. Um, and but you're also you're creating a state change. When we are physically active, our brain reads that as a signal that there that you're moving forward, that there are steps you can take. I mean, it's like it's so fascinating. Movement is such a great metaphor and our brain just like takes it literally. You can move forward. There are steps you can take. Um, you can breathe, right? It's it's the things that you do with your body. You can do hard things. There's reasons to celebrate. Go move with somebody else. Your brain understands you're not alone. There's something movement is so interesting. I guess it's just because it's how humans evolved and it's how we exist in bodies, but our bodies really

25:28 reward us for acknowledging that. >> Well, I think if you even just ask yourself if you're feeling not like yourself and disconnected and flatly, have you gotten out of your chair? >> Yeah. >> Like simply just standing up. Okay, I'm standing up now. I'm I'm like kind of wiggling and now I'm sitting back down and I feel just a little bit like different. I'm I'm kind of positioned in the chair different now. >> And if you can't get out of a chair, you move whatever parts of your body you still can. >> Yeah. Lift your arms. Do something. All right. So, that's resource number one, body. What is another thing we can do with our brain? So, the brain is also a resource >> that can help you plug in to signals of joy and hope and meaning. You probably know that your brain monitors all sorts of processes in your body. It's measuring your heart rate, your breathing, your blood sugar, and it's

26:14 trying to make sure everything's good enough to keep you alive. Well, your brain also monitors these other like big existential questions like does anybody care about me? Are there people I care about? Am I alone or am I connected? Does what I do matter? Uh is there beauty in the world? Is there a reason to smile? Are there things to look forward to? Are human beings good? There are all these things that like we actually need to know to want to be alive. Not to our brain is monitoring things in our body that allow us to be alive and our brain is monitoring things about our life that make us want to be alive. And in a crisis when you're getting so much information about how hard things are,

27:00 how bad things could get, and you're starting to feel emotions like like overwhelm or maybe loneliness, uh fear, anger, you need signals that say there are good things in the world. What you do matters. You aren't alone. There are people you care about who care about you. You need experiences that tell you that as much as you need to eat and as much as you need to breathe. Um, and so even the smallest uplifts, the smallest moments of joy, meaningful pleasure, connection, moments where you feel proud about yourself for something you did, even if it was small, it's like it's so fascinating is as a coping resource, the size doesn't matter. You could be in a situation where the suffering is huge and you experience an uplift that is

27:46 objectively small. like noticing something beautiful out your window or someone said thanked you for something that you did. >> I'll give you one. When I had severe postpartum depression with my daughter Sawyer, I remember the day I actually got out of bed and took a shower. >> Yeah. >> And then I went back to bed. But that one moment of standing in that hot shower after like 11 days in that bed was the smallest moment that made me feel like okay. And sometimes it's the sensory aspect of it like the hot water on your skin and maybe there's relief for like a moment or sometimes it's the meaning that you make out of it. Maybe some part of you is like I couldn't do this yesterday or

28:33 the day before and I did it today. And it's that meaning that your brain I mean the brain when I said that like one of the resources is that your brain is really good at making meaning is your brain can have these generous interpretations of small moments or experiences. It's also like something you can train yourself to do. That hot shower wouldn't really have provided the same kind of hope if there wasn't some part of you that could put it in the context of you not being able to do it yesterday. And that that means something. It means that change is possible or it means that you are capable. The the brain has all sorts of processes it can do. Visualization, imagination, memory, you know, problem solving. So, let's go with memory because we know that when you bring to mind a memory

29:19 that either makes you feel good or makes you feel good about yourself. So, it doesn't necessarily have to be a happy memory, but a memory that means something to you that it gives you an instant increase in hope. >> Um, it can bring up positive emotions like gratitude or enthusiasm. People have reported using memories when they can't be with people they love in order to remind themselves that there are people who care about them and that there are people who they can depend on. So, you can use whatever treasure trove of memories you have. remember something that makes you smile or makes you laugh or makes you feel close to someone. You can even like collect memories that become resources in that way. When I'm feeling like really scared and I don't

30:04 want to do something, but a more important part of me does want to do it. >> It's just getting the the other part that wants to be in control or avoid discomfort, right? That part is a little too loud right now. Um, I can bring up a memory of when I felt glad that I did this hard thing before or I can bring up a memory of someone who loves me encouraging me and telling me that I can do it. Um, yeah. So, let's make that our brain resource. >> I love that one. I think I I I have one that just came to mind. when I feel lonely and I feel um discouraged or I feel like I don't know how I'm going to get through something. A memory I often come back to was 21 years ago, Mass General Brigham Hospital here in Boston.

30:50 Our son Oakley was 5 days old and had been medevaced to the hospital and the docs in the suburban hospital had said, "Pack your bags. We don't know if he's going to make it." So, we went home, packed our bags, and when we got to Mass General Brighgam, it was like 11:00 at night, and the door swung open to the NICU, and there were my friends, Robin and Lisa, and um and I'll never forget it. They had both had babies prior in the nickn. Um, but I come back to that and the funny thing is is that I I don't even see them as much as I am dying to see them. You know, we're all in our late 50s and kids that have moved out of the

31:36 house and everyone seems oddly busier at this stage at life. But it does remind me even though they're not in front of me of a moment when I wasn't alone and I did get through it. So you know it's funny you're doing what is the next step when psychologists are trying to help people use memories as a resource. This one question that I learned from a psychologist at take a contractor. She asks her clients what is a an important thought or feeling this memory gives you. And so I was going to actually ask you that memory came to mind. What's an important thought or feeling that gives you? >> And you mentioned that you aren't alone and that you can get through this. >> Yes. And it also makes me want to be the kind of person >> that shows up in those moments. >> Yeah, that's so great. Right. So, that's

32:23 the next step with a lot of these things. I think sometimes people think the intention of what we're talking about is just to feel better. >> But often it's about helping us be the person we want to be in the moment, too. And so, you know, just asking yourself that question gave you almost an orientation or a mission like you're called to do something feelings up. And I think that's kind of the point of what we're talking about. Like particularly, you know, that a good life is not one where you're happy all the time. A good life is not one where everything is going well or perfectly or everybody's healthy or you're thriving. A good life includes these moments that are terrifying. And I think it's really important that when you recognize that

33:10 even in those moments when your life feels horrible and scary, it can still be a beautiful life. And I I really find it helpful personally and I hope you do too as you're listening or watching this idea that there are signals that are scary and then there are signals that are hopeful. >> And at any moment you can use these seven resources inside of you whether they're not even here in the present. You can go back 21 years like I just did in this conversation. Yeah. >> And remind yourself that this moment too, >> you can get through and that there are people there to help and that you aren't going to be alone even though you feel it right now. >> Mhm. >> Let's talk about the next >> which is your attention. >> Um attention. So >> there's way too much going on in any given moment for your brain to process.

33:56 It's always making choices and your brain is just discarding huge amount amounts of information about what's happening in this moment. And a lot of people like me have a negative attention bias where our brain is like made a decision. It's just a little more important to be vigilant for things that could go wrong or to pay attention to things that are not right or you know maybe it's self-criticism or or criticism outwards or anxiety and you can just filter that by making a choice that in this moment I want to bring my attention to something that's going right or to to find a signal that is encouraging. So, um, when I teach classes on joy, I'll often have people practice this by saying like, "Right now, I want you to look around this

34:43 room, wherever you are, including your body, for something that reminds you of someone or something you love." You could do that. Or you could say, "Right now, I'm going to look around in this moment for evidence that somebody did something to make life better for me." Or, "I'm going to look around right now for something that I enjoy, that I'm having a positive response to." you get, it really depends on your personality. You get to choose what you bring your attention to, but there will probably be certain aspects of reality that are true that if you don't remind yourself to pay attention to them, it's so easy to have a kind of like you're just blind to them. It's like, you know, if you're shopping, you're at the grocery store and you're looking for a type of cereal. If you know you're looking for that cereal, everything gets kind of blurry

35:28 and then that cereal logo jumps out at you, right? It was already there, but you had to tell your brain, I'm trying to find that cereal now, so help me. I I am curious, Dr. McGonagal, >> in a moment in your life >> where either your personal life has so much external despair >> or the world around you that you're living in has so much external despair. So there's so much grabbing at your attention that's real that's there. >> Does your negative bias in your mind >> become bigger? >> It depends. Okay. >> If you're asking me, yes. >> Well, I mean it because I would think like if all the input's negative like

36:13 this is like you know in periods of grief, you've just been laid off, you feel terrible about it, you're drowning, you you've been broken up with like these moments that are crushing. >> Yeah. or you read the headlines for too long and now you're like I can't do anything to say and now I'm like super and now all you see is negativity. So two things can happen. Okay, one is it's very like your brain initially is going to think this is reality. So it's going to be really important to pay attention to this to stay on guard. I've got to keep track of all the things that I have to take care of. I mean I you know two years ago I think to almost to this date my father was diagnosed with a terminal untreatable cancer and my mom went through a health crisis that required a lot of help and that was I think the most intense period of my life in terms

36:59 of the abs the chaos and the crisis unfolding all at once and requiring so much more from me than I was used to just daytoday being able to function and take care of stuff and manage things going wrong and trying to to prevent the worst possible outcomes. But there's this other instinct that often can float up and if it doesn't float up, you can pull it up, which is I am not going to survive this if I do not have at least one moment today when I laugh. I am not going to survive this unless I have a moment where I let somebody touch me who cares about me or whatever it is for you that brings you a little moment of peace or joy or meaning. I remember I was

37:45 taking a shower and I started getting texts and phone calls at the same time from family and and healthcare providers and social workers and I was in the shower. So I turned the water off and I sat on the floor of the shower for like 3 hours because I thought I do not have time to dry myself off. I couldn't even like that sort of coping. But as the as things progressed, I realized that to survive, I needed to hold on to a few things that were renewing and sustaining. And part of its attention, like at the end of the day, looking back for one highlight instead of like my mind going to sleep, it would say your job now is to think about everything that could go wrong tomorrow, everything you have to do tomorrow, and definitely don't put your phone, you know, to sleep cuz you're going to be getting texts,

38:32 you know, from at 3:00 in the morning. But I could use my attention in that moment to think about one highlight of the day, which really functions well to also remind your brain that good things are possible or that you aren't alone, whatever that signal is that you need. I also appreciate that you just said because as you're listening, you or somebody that you love may be in that moment where you're sitting in the shower for 3 hours >> dealing. >> Yeah. >> Because you don't have time to take a shower. And >> I love that we keep framing this like the external signals come in that overwhelm you and super challenging moments. That's how life works. >> And you can dig up something when you realize I'm drowning here and I need a laugh. >> Yeah. >> Let's go to the next one. The next free resource is your instincts. Like how do

39:19 you use your instincts as a resource to find meaning, purpose to support yourself through these challenging moments? Here's my favorite instinct that is deeply underappreciated >> because we have instincts for courage. We have instincts to help others. Those are lovely. But there is some part of you who loves something beyond reason. I don't know what you're a fan of, but there is something that probably you like more than is easy to explain. >> Fantasy fiction. >> Okay, great. >> Listening dramatic audio. >> So, I think most people have something that they just love beyond reason and often it's something that is accessible. And when life is difficult, we often think, I don't have time for this, or it's frivolous. Maybe the people in our lives don't really understand why it's so important or helpful to us. And if

40:04 you just you should trust what you love. It's a beautiful part of who you are, especially if you've had a relationship with it over time, if it's been there for you, um that in moments when you need it, to let it be that thing that keeps you going or lifts you up. >> And I love it if it's a little weird. >> Yeah. Yeah, like one of the reasons why I love fantasy fiction is it allows me to escape. I'm living in a different world as I'm listening to this like movie acting out in my mind. I also love knitting. I love needle work. I love gardening. I like all those kinds of things. And so your instinct that gets ignited by something that's just for you that kind of reminds you like what does it do when you're sitting there doing needle point during a stressful time? >> It's so interesting. You ask people about the things they love, they will I play this game with my students where I

40:50 make a list of activities and knitting is one of them. Playing board games is one of them. And then researchers have asked people, explain why this is so meaningful to you. >> And people say things like in in a moment when I was in such deep pain and agony to be able to feel something that wasn't that it was like love. I'm like, what activity do you think they were describing? That quote that I just paraphrased that was about playing board games. This is why I said it's sort of without reason that there will be activities that just when you do them you feel better about yourself, better about life. You feel like you have a place to show up. Whatever the reason is, they fulfill really important core human needs. And you shouldn't have to justify that to anybody else. It's so easy to dismiss these things. But if if

41:37 they brought in a puppy right now or a kitten, can we? >> I Tracy, come on. >> Come on. Could we? If you want to see some unbridled joy. >> Oh my god. I would I I like even just imagining puppies running. I'm imagining little baby corgis. I love corgis. You know how they're like big little They're low to the ground. I just love corgis. I'm imagining puppies right now. Now I'm happier. I I want to tell you about some research too with this. I'm a huge proponent everyone should have an animal in their life. I'm trained as a an adoption counselor. If you want to rescue pets, please hit me up. Why should you have an animal in your life? There's such amazing research. First of all, if you want to look for the moments in people's lives when they smile or laugh or experience play or experience affectionate touch, right? Core human

42:23 needs that of anything you could do in life, you are most likely to experience those things when you are interacting with an animal and especially your pet. And they've done studies too looking at places where people are suffering like in a hospital or in hospice. You bring in an animal and these these things just come out of us. We are still capable of smiling, laughing, playing and engaging in caregiving and affectionate touch. It's a wonderful opportunity we have as humans. Everyone should adopt a pet. I agree. It's so true. And when you bring in the pet, what's interesting is my resigned frustrated exhausted judgy pushbacky self goes right out the window. I'm like, you're absolutely right. I do feel better when I see my pet. And that's a signal of things that

43:10 are good. That's a signal of meaning. It's a signal of of the good experience of being human, which you said, Dr. McConagle, is hardwired in you. I know. And it's a sign of what's good in you, too. So, especially if you're a dog person, dogs, the way that dogs look at you is what we really all crave, right? We want people to kind of see us for who we are and be like, "I'm so glad you're here." >> And dogs are really good at that. Now, I'm a cat person. What cats are really good at, they're good at saying, uh, I trust you. Like, that's that's a trustbased relationship. When you get a cat who's willing to trust you, it gives you this sense of like, wow, I'm a I'm a special person. Like, I I created a real

43:56 bond here. And then when you interact with animals and you feel that way about yourself, you know, it just leaves a sense of that being true outside of just that one relationship. >> Um, and it's I mean, we're talking about animals now. There are lots of ways we can experience this. What I actually really want people to do is trust the experiences that give them that feeling. So if you're thinking, I'm not an animal person, but I feel that way when I'm in nature or I feel that way when I'm making music or I feel that way when I'm cooking for people. Um is to to find the things that make you feel that way about yourself where like who you are is a good thing and there's a fit between who you are and what's happening in that moment. Emotions is another one of these free resources that help you tap into the signals of life that you're wired to

44:42 feel meaning, purpose, joy. >> How do you use your emotions? >> Let's see. I mean, one way is to start with where you actually are. I that that's where you ask yourself like what emotions are present >> and what is that emotion trying to help me reflect on or what is it calling me to do? I feel like that's a really advanced skill though. When you shut down emotionally, >> what does that mean? >> It is a moment where your body and brain reading the situation uh think that there's actually nothing you can do. And if you feel like you are unsafe, don't have a lot of power, don't have a lot of control or options, your body and brain will try as an act of kindness to make you less present for

45:28 what's happening. >> And so you can start to shut down. you can start to be less, you know, in some some stress responses, it heightens all your senses because those stress responses want you to fight or flee or help someone or like, you know, rise to the challenge. But some stress responses are just trying to take care of you in a difficult moment and make it less awful to be in. And in some situations, it's helpful. But a lot of us who have had experiences where it was helpful at the time it can become a kind of chronic way to relate to life where anytime things get difficult the body and brain is like let's go into that place where it can't can't we can't feel it as much >> and uh often you know the the coping

46:13 strategies I had to learn that someone who who experiences this kind of withdrawal or shutdown you have to um start to really cultivate these other stress st responses, these other stress resources that are more about engaging with life. How do you do that? >> There's two types of strategies. One is the more global like what you do in your life to train yourself and then there is in the moment. >> I really believe that what you need to do is train for these moments. Okay? So I mean I could tell you something to do but the number one thing I would tell you to do is you need to go in your mind to the memory of the thing you were able to do when you were training. So let me give you an example. You know you thanked me for getting on a plane to get out here and I mentioned I hate flying.

46:58 I have huge fear of flying my entire life to the point where you know I refuse to fly have panic attacks even thinking about booking an airline ticket. I would like dissociate or hope to dissociate even when I had to think about giving up my bodily autonomy in that way and being on an airplane. >> It felt unsafe. >> Yeah. So, here's how I trained. When I decided I wanted to be able to fly, I thought, how do I feel when I'm on a plane, which is completely out of control, I'm having a panic attack, so my heart is racing. I'm sweating. All I want is to get out of this space. I want the freedom to leave. and I'm trapped and I can't. >> Um, and I thought, where have I ever felt like that that's not on a plane cuz I'm not ready to get on a plane. And I

47:44 remembered going to a spin class, an indoor cycling class and hating it. And feeling like I when I was on that bike, I just wanted to get off the bike. I wanted to get out of the sweaty room with stale air. My heart was pounding. And I thought, I'm going to go back and I'm going to go to that spin class and I'm going to practice staying on the bike and feeling all the things that I feel on an airplane. And in that moment, I'm going to tell myself, I'm doing this because I want to choose a life where I can get on planes. As much as I try to protect myself, I can't protect myself from things I don't want to experience. It actually I'm suffering just as much by avoiding it as I ever would be by doing it. And so I'm going to I'm going to practice this kind of for me it was like a just the physical courage to stay put and tolerate the pounding heart and

48:30 tolerate the sweat um and feeling trapped. I'm going to tolerate that in the service of something that matters to me. And I feel like so I know it'd be like so nice if I could tell you when you're dissociated. I mean there are things you can do like feel your feet on the floor. There are things you can do to ground and I've heard a lot of wonderful people on your show talk about those in the moments. But I really want you to have a memory of you being that version of yourself and that's what you call to mind. >> Is there something you can say um to yourself? Because if you're saying to yourself, there's nothing I can do. Could you start saying to yourself, "Well, there's something I can do." You could, but here's what I'd rather start with. The function of that shutdown is some part of you is trying to take care of you. Yeah. >> It is compassion for yourself. the same way that you would want to protect

49:17 someone you love and you'd want to like scoop them up and like shelter them if something terrible was happening, right? You'd throw your body over them so they didn't have to experience it. So that's what is real and true in that moment is there's a part of you who cares about yourself that much. >> Oh, I love that. >> And that's the part of me that got on a bike and that's the part of me that gets on an airplane even when I don't want to. It's a different form of self-compassion. And so what I would say is rather than saying I do have control. I you know well that's also true but to start with the thing that's closer to what's happening which is there's a part of you who really cares about you and wants the best for you. >> That part of you if you thought about it like what do who do I want to be in this moment? What do I want to bring to this moment?

50:02 >> I love what you said. I think it's extraordinarily powerful to not make yourself wrong, but to recognize the moments that you go silent and shut down and start to shrink as a sign that you love yourself and you're protecting yourself. And what I heard you say is then start to ask yourself like, how do I want in the future to feel and show up in these moments? Like what does a little courage look like? even when I'm a little afraid. I don't have to do it right now. But if you can start to imagine what you want to feel like in those moments, then you can find opportunities to practice that in little moments where you're not as shut down. Is that what you're saying? >> In the same way that someone who loves

50:48 you would like the person who's going to be like, "All right, Kelly, you don't want to get on that plane, but I know you can do it. You've done like really hard things before. uh I trust you and you want this, you can do it. You know, you can talk to yourself in the same way as someone who cares because you are someone who cares about you >> and then it can move from protection to encouraging >> and then and curiosity about what is possible. And so often hopelessness or despair is trying to get you to give up. >> And in some situations that could be a functional response. But how we often we often end up generalizing like if it was just saying give up on this job like this specific move on to the next or there's something

51:35 better waiting for you move. If that were how we felt hopelessness it would be more useful. But how we often feel it is we just transfer it to life. >> We're like it's time to give up on life or it's time to give up on the belief that things will get better >> or my dreams. Oh, I think a lot of people are there. So I think this is important. Okay. And what I like about what you're saying >> is the mis the the mistake if I parse through this >> is that if you're feeling hopeless or discouraged like this isn't worth it, it's never going to get better, which a lot of people do >> and then you go wide and you look around and you say nothing is going to matter. There's nothing that I can do. >> Yeah. Then you've taken an emotion that's trying to give you a signal from

52:22 intelligence >> and you've made it way too broad. >> Yeah. Yeah. And so instead of like trying to pull your like it could be hopeless to stay in a a relationship that is very harmful to you. Of course >> that relationship may not change >> the the but there is hope that you can get out. Here's what I'm hearing from you and I think this is really actually helpful. Hopelessness is a signal that the way you're approaching this doesn't work. >> Yeah. >> And you should change the approach rather than the goal. >> Yeah. >> And so if the approach if what you want is to be loved but you're in a relationship that's hopeless, staying in that relationship won't give you what you want. You have to change your approach. >> There's a like flexibility as a response to hopelessness is a very helpful

53:08 response. That is to not give up on what you want or what you care about. >> Just change the way you're approaching it. Because if you've sent 300 rs on an online platform and got nothing back, of course you're going to feel hopeless. But what the signal is saying is, "Hey, ding ding ding. This strategy isn't working >> and let's get creative about how how we can approach how you want to get better." >> And sometimes it's actions like you have to try something different. But you know, when I used to advise a lot of freshmen at Stanford, um they would often come in feeling hopeless like the first time they fail an exam or when they realize they can't actually be premed and they have this sense that um like there's only one way for them to have a good life or a happy life or make other people proud. And I always felt

53:54 like my job was like there are so many ways to have a life where you contribute. There are so many ways to have a life where you wake up and you enjoy yourself that day. The opportunities to have a life worth living are vast. And I, you know, when you're feeling hopeless, the more you fixate on the specific version you thought had to be, that is when the hopelessness is, it becomes overwhelming. And also, you can since we're talking about emotions here, so if you're feeling hopelessness, you can also use your capacity for hope as a resource. >> Tell me how. And there's great, you know, like I love global research because I always feel like sometimes studies will like look at one small sample and who knows if this is really a human thing or just like a thing for that group. So there's a a study called

54:40 the um the is it the hope project um where they asked people all over the world what is what is a source of hope for you when life is hard? >> And the there were very common themes but one of the biggest sources of hope two of the biggest sources of hope were doing something to help someone else. Actually, let me give you three. Doing something to help someone else, being thanked by someone you helped, or seeing somebody else do something to help someone. Now, look, all of those are possible when you're feeling hopeless. Um, I always say one of the the most underappreciated acts of kindness you can do or acts of courage or joy or hope is to let somebody else help you. Because in the moment you let someone

55:26 help you, you receiving receiving the support of someone is another source of hope. But then that person feels better. They feel more hopeful. You have an opportunity to thank them for helping you. That's a huge source of hope. And you make hope possible for you and for the person who helped you. And then if you can help someone else out, it's just another way into that cycle. Well, and I think it's important to be reminded as you're listening or watching this that your brain is wired to pick up signals that you're doing this because when your brain sees you doing these acts of good >> or appreciating them or allowing other people to help you, >> it reminds you that you're good. It reminds you that life is worth living, it's this kind of throughine that gets you to >> use these resources in you to get you through this. and you by doing this or

56:13 making a choice and that's another one of these free resources, the choices you make. So let's give an example of how to use the power of a choice. >> Yeah, I think you know there are certain um I often talk about acts of joy. There are things you do that make joy possible for yourself or for others. And by that I really mean you can do things that make people feel connected or less alone or yourself. You can create a sense of meaning. you can create a moment where people have something to laugh about. >> And so, in a simple version could be um I'm going to do something to put something beautiful in the world that might surprise someone if you're somebody who responds to beauty. >> Um or I'm going to send somebody a note to encourage them and let them know that I'm thinking about them. >> Um and these are these are acts that you

57:00 don't have to feel you don't have to feel joyful. You don't have to feel hopeful. You just have to think, I'm going to do something where I know the most likely consequence is joy, hope, meaning, connection. And if you if you do that, almost always you end up being the recipient of it yourself, too, because the person you encourage is going to be encouraged and they'll respond in a way that makes you feel good or you'll delight in imagining or seeing somebody else understand that you went out of your way to, you know, make their day better or to give them something to laugh about. It just occurred to me that another choice that is a free resource is to do any one of the things you're recommending. >> Yeah. >> Because then by choosing to do it, >> you're reminding yourself that you're capable and you have a bit of agency

57:46 right now. >> What you pay attention to, what you bring to mind, what you do with your body, music, all of it. >> And the final free resource is your relationship. How would you recommend that you think about the relationships in your life as a resource to help you through the very challenging moments? Because I I've been struck by the number of people that write in and say they don't have anybody. >> Yeah. And I don't know that that's true. It may feel like it's true. >> It often feels like it's true. You know, when I think about using relationships as a resource, they're really like

58:32 there's two directions. So, you're pointing to a willingness to ask for help or let people know what's going on. That's very difficult for me. I mean, I was really brought up to believe that you are not supposed to be a burden. So sometimes um I think one of the ways you use your relationships as resources is you actually invite the possibility that people in your life want to be there for you and that it actually is it's not just a gift to yourself, but it's a gift to other people. And if you feel like you don't have close friends or family that you can rely on, it's amazing. There are people who might be around you who've been through something similar and are waiting to turn that horrible

59:17 experience into a source of meaning for themselves. I see this happen all the time. I teach at a community center. I see people who were strangers. Suddenly, when one person is honest and says, "I'm going through grief. I'm going through cancer treatment. I'm going through a divorce." somebody else who's been through that, who was a stranger, suddenly becomes somebody who wants to show up for that person with moral support, advice, resources. And so part of it is maybe have the idea that there are people who if you just start being more transparent about what you're going through, there are people who want to be there for you because they care about you. But also, there are going to be people who it makes their life more meaningful and easier to deal with it because they're able to turn that into an opportunity to connect with or help you. >> I think it's very common to not want to

1:00:04 feel like you're burdening somebody else. And I remember um my dad had a health incident a couple years ago and when they finally figured out what it was, which was an intact brain aneurysm that was going to require him to have a major surgery at um and my parents had been dealing with this for a month before they told me and my brother. And I remember them saying, "We didn't want to worry you." And I was actually mad. >> Yeah. because I felt like you by wanting to protect me denied me the opportunity to love you and support you through this. >> Yeah. >> And I understand both sides of it, >> but because I've always been the kind of person

1:00:49 >> that, >> you know, doesn't want to ask for help, doesn't want to burden people, but when I really experience this feeling of, wait, >> but I didn't get to support you. Yeah. >> I love you. Like, like I want the opportunity to do that for you. makes me like upset that you went through that alone and felt like like it was a burden to tell me like it's generous in my opinion >> to share with people what you're going through. >> Yeah. >> And to really allow them in. >> Yeah. It's interesting. There's the sense of not wanting to be a burden when things are bad. And then people also have a fear of not wanting to brag when things are going well. And they're like two sides of the same coin. Just like you were saying, you can deprive someone

1:01:36 of the opportunity to be there for you in your worst moments. And so, one of the ways we use our relationships as a resource uh for all of us, I mean, if you're going to use your relationships as a resource, you really need to be in that mindset of interdependence because it's not just for you. It's for the relationship. you are letting people be there for you strengthens the relationship and also you are helping the person you're in a relationship with. So if you're going to try to use your relationships as a resource, you really got to get into that mindset that actually it's bigger than you and that

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