Missing God's Voice (spiritual deafness, discernment, & true evangelism) w/Jamie & Donna Winship

0:00 Look at me in the eyes right now. Tell me what you did. I can't even say it. Tell me what you did. I'm not going to let you go until you tell me exactly what you did that you're so ashamed of. I can't even say it. And he he goes, "Well," and he tell me what I did. And I go, "I could care less what you did." And he goes, "Oh." And I go, "And I'm not even God." And he loves you and he's forgiven you. And I don't care. So why don't you just put this lie away? Knowing and experiencing truth has one effect on humans. It sets them free. If you want to love a person deeply, tell them what you're most afraid of. People say God doesn't speak, and you're wrong. 100% wrong. But I didn't hear him. That's true. But it isn't cuz he wasn't speaking. It's cuz you didn't hear. I would be intoxicated. And Jesus would be right next to me going, "Let me know when you want to stop this cuz I'm ready." And I would tell him, "No." He goes, "I can't believe you taught from the Quran in front of all these people."

0:45 He goes, "I can't believe you did that." And I said, "God did it for you. Jesus would have taught from your book." People don't realize how many times God has spoken to them, but they didn't recognize that it was God. The most basic element of our faith is learning how to hear from God. And we never start with that. We start with theology. Paul, when he's getting on the ship to go to Rome, he has no voice, no influence, nothing. By the end of the trip, he runs the entire ship. How? The redhead says, "Do you know who it is?" And she said, "No, but he's really nice." And she goes, "Ask him his name." And she looks back at the redhead. She goes, "It's Jesus." Everyone wants to get to the high places, but if you want to go high, you first have to go deep. What's up? We are

1:30 back. Welcome to the show, Jake. Thanks for welcoming me back, man. Uh last last time we had Jamie Winship on, Jake rated him an 85 out of 100. Um and I hopefully his rating goes up after the first episode. Yeah. So, would you would you like to tell us a new updated rating of how excited you are for today? Uh currently I'm at a 110. Whoa. I'm very only go down. Wow. The last time we could go only go up. So, what did you rate Jake and Taylor? I didn't. I was I I was so Well, now's your chance. Now's your chance. Right here. Right now. We were afraid to ask him for his rating cuz he's a professional and we just we wanted to get under a belt. Guys, if you're probably already noticed, we have

2:16 Jaime's wife, Donna, here with us. Jamie and Donna are co-founders of Identity Exchange. It's an agency providing training and consulting in the transformation transformative power learning how to read. Yes. Good. Of living fearlessly in one's true identity. They've worked with leaders in professional sports, business, education, law enforcement, government, nonprofit, and other sectors. You have a really amazing book called Living Fearless. Your book's coming out in the next month or two. Oh, maybe in the next year. Year or two. But I write courses. I'm just going to get proddding. Yeah. this book. Um, and if you haven't read Living Fearless, you have to get it. You have to read it. Um, we give copies away all the time. I've read it a few times. And, uh, it's a book on how to step into your identity.

3:02 It's has less, I think, to do with getting rid of fear and more to do with living as who you are, which kind of erases fear. Yeah. In the process. So, well, I'd like to add ask them a question just for a little bit of a a more story-based bio for a second. Okay. How many people, if you had to guess, have come to Jesus, Muslim, any religion, have come to relig have come to Jesus as a result of the work you guys have been doing? Oh my gosh. If you had to guess, wow, that this is a first time question. No one has ever asked us that question. Wow. I don't even know. You know, Jamie often talks about his personal testimony when he was 17. Uh he

3:48 was he he grew up in a very strict Christian home on his mother's side, not his father's side so much and but never it was so rulebased and guiltrovoking that it didn't resonate with him. But when he was in high school, he was uh very athletic and into sports, not so much because he loved it, but more to release anger. And he had a terrible wrestling accident in a tournament. And busted up his knee and he always wanted to be a police officer. and he wasn't upset about busting up his knee and maybe not being able to play sports again, but because he might not

4:34 be able to pass a police physical. And he was in the hospital and had to have surgery. And this physical therapist came in every day to work with him. and um she's the one that really shared the gospel with him in a new way that wasn't, you know, the urgency of hell message, but it was a true message of love. And and he always said that her love overrode his anger. And that was what gave him a sense of what the true gospel is and what he really wanted to be able to do with other people. love people that were unlovable. And so when you ask that question, how many people do you think

5:20 have come to Jesus? We always say Jaime went back to try to find her years later and could never find her. But we always say when the great roll call of heaven happens and Jesus calls her name to stand up and says how many people were influenced because of her that thousands if not millions of Muslims will stand up and cheer for her because that's was her influence on the world and she never will know it. She's never known it. There's got to be millions. That's my answer to the question. Yeah, that's a good answer. Yeah, it's beautiful cuz if it wasn't for her, it's always goes back to another person, right? So, yeah, we've we've seen people movements, huge

6:07 people movements in Muslim cities in thousands. So, yeah, I don't know. But we didn't know they were happening when they were happening. And ourselves were part of them. Not so much as starting them, but our own transformation. We were counted in the number of people being transformed. Not so much like leading. You don't you don't have like a spreadsheet track. I'll send it to you later. Yeah. That's what you're supposed to do is like, you know, you Yeah. Keep counting. That's right. That's when it fails. So, I was at um I was at an event recently where Jamie was speaking. You were there as well. And I was saying this off air, but coming from a Pentecostal church background, you know,

6:53 we're used to like when the sermon gets emotional, you got to have a keys player because you can't catch the story without some pads or anything. And so this is what I grew up in. And me and my wife were sitting in this room. It's a little hotel and you're sharing some story and I find myself crying and I'm like, there's no pads. I don't know why I'm crying. And it's like the ingredients are not here, but it's the story of how real Jesus is. And how when Jesus shows up, everything changes in a person's life. Um when when you guys are walking through life together, cuz she's in that story. We'll tell that story later. I think she probably got you into that mess in every story. She gets some regards. That's right. Uh, but like how did you guys how does a power couple and

7:39 I say that not to trigger ego or anything like that, but you guys are a force together. How do you how does this happen? How do you how have you gotten here? How did you meet? What what was what was the start like? Yeah. Um, yeah. Do you want to start that? Cuz you started all of it basically. Really? I was minding my own business. Honestly, I grew up in a a Jewish home. Both of sets of my grandparents uh immigrated from Russia early 1900s during the programs that were happening there. They were lucky to be able to escape and come to America. And the ones that didn't escape, you know, perished, you know, at the genocide and

8:27 ethnic cleansing that was happening in Eastern Europe at the time. And if they didn't escape, if they didn't perish in Russia, you know, everything that led up to the Holocaust, they perished then. So you the fact that I'm alive, I really consider it a miracle. So grew up under that type of um you know religion very um legalistic very traditionbased not so much a personal relationship with God um but just a lot of um a lot of rules and traditions and you've got to carry on the tradition of Judaism so the religion and the culture doesn't die out but no sense of personal relationship with God that was meaningful and uh it just didn't really

9:15 do it for me. I I loved the the the the culture of it and the continuity of it and the sentimentality of it, but in terms of of personal meaning and spirituality, it didn't have any for me. So, as I grew up and got into high school and you're asking those big questions, what's my purpose for being here? Why do I exist? What's my identity? I didn't have any of that and I couldn't find it. And I was especially um fearful of death cuz in Judaism, it doesn't teach anything about heaven or hell. If you read the Old Testament, like what does it say about heaven? What does it say about hell? Like, you probably can't tell me one verse, right?

10:01 because there isn't any. And went to my rabbi, nobody could ever answer those questions. Went off to college, had all these insecurities, was trying to find myself, trying to find a a sense of belonging, and couldn't find it. Um, so ended up kind of with the rough crowd, the the the bad crowd, if if you will. And um I had this friend that I was dating, a guy that I was dating and he came and got me once out of the library. I had like some big paper due the next day that I had waited till the last minute. I wasn't a great student and cuz I'd rather go out and party than study. And he's like, "You got to meet this guy." I met this guy and he just changed

10:46 my life. You got to go meet him. And so he took me to this guy's dorm room. I'd never met him before. Knocked on the door. The guy opened the door and the guy I was dating turned around and left, introduced us and just turned around and left. And I meet this guy and the guy looks at me and he says, "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life, but you are sinful and separated from him. Therefore, you cannot know that plan for your life." Best pick up line. And he proceeded to tell me how sinful I was. Well, this kind of language is not used in Judaism. I didn't know what he meant by sin. We don't talk about sin. We talk about Passover and eating matzah and, you know, stuff like this,

11:33 Hanukkah, and, you know, we just don't use that kind of language. We talk about traditions and lighting candles on Shabbat and, you know, saying the blessing over the wine. We just don't use that kind of language. So, I didn't know what he was talking about. Then he gets into how I'm going to go to hell if I don't pray this prayer and accept Jesus as my savior. Well, do you know how offensive this is? Because remember Jesus is the Christian guy and think of all the people in Christian history in history all the Christians that persecuted Jews. In most recent memory, um Hitler was an

12:19 evangelical Christian. So why would I want to have anything to do with Christianity and he's telling me if I don't believe in this Christian Jesus, I'm going to go to hell. And this wasn't Jamie. So guess what? This is so many different. So guess what for the audience? I let me finish my story. Okay. So I looked at this guy and I who's telling me I'm going to go to hell if I don't pray this prayer. a big life decision, right? Pray this little prayer. And so I looked at him and I said, "I'm Jewish. We're the chosen people. You go to hell." And I turned around and walked away. I did marry that guy 5 years ago, Jamie. Never would have seen that coming. So

13:04 you tell your side of the story. It was me and my roommate. Um Yeah. So that's Yeah. So he this guy introduces me India and he leaves. Yeah. Biggest mistake of his life. Big mistake. And so actually and I told after we had this conversation, I actually told my roommate that night, that's the girl I'm going to marry right there. I knew it. I knew it immediately. He was drawn to the hutbah. Yeah. Right. And as soon as she said told me I was going to hell, I was going to hell. I said, "Yep, that's her. I This is my life partner right here." Um, so then I I stopped her. I did say all that to her. I wanted to like, you know, because I was in Campus Crusade and that's what you do. Um, and I

13:49 stopped her. I said, "Hold on, hold on, hold on." Cuz I I had never met a Jewish person in my life. And so when she I it had never occurred to me that she would be Jewish. And so when she said, "I'm Jewish. We're the chosen people." She actually You actually said, "You need that Jesus crutch." That's what you said to me. you Christians need the Jesus. You need a crutch. And um and I said, so I I said, "Wait a second. Wait, wait, wait." And I started thinking like, there's okay, I'm going to redo this. And so she she hesitated and I invited her back and she came back into our room as me and my roommate um who was the best man at our wedding actually. Um, and I I started praying and my prayer was God because I was immediately I just

14:34 like had this deep sense in my heart about this person. This is going to be my partner. And um I had this I said to the Lord, do you help me? Do you know how to talk to a Jewish person? Like it just never occurred to me that anything I'd ever know would be related to Jewish people. That's how ignorant I was. And um cuz I I grew up that Abraham was the first Christian. You know, that's what we how I was raised. And that is so insulting. It's hilarious. And so I was like, "Come on, come on. Come on. There's a way to talk to Jewish people. I know there's a way to talk to Jewish people." And then so I thought about, you know, the Messianic Psalms. And I said to I said to her, "Do you know do do you know that the like the Old Testament do you know what the Old

15:20 Testament says about the Messiah?" And that's what that's what intrigued her. And then we got into re talking about the Messiah being in the Old Testament. And I think the big question that really got her thinking was I said to her, "Do you know who Isaiah 53 is talking about? Do you know what person Isaiah 53 is talking about?" And she, you knew Isaiah 53. She grew up in Hebrew school and all that. But depending on how you read it, how you're taught something, it never occurs to you to ask another question about it. It's just a framework you know it in. You'll never ask another question about it. And so when I said it's a person, she had never considered Isaiah 53 being a person. That's why you can't just hand a Bible to a person and they get saved. Like it's not magic. It's not

16:07 a magic book. And so she said, "What do you mean that's a person? That's Israel. It's Israel." And I said, "No, it's a person." And that's I think that's what triggered you to she actually made her go to her rabbi and say, "Who is this?" Actually, I didn't know who it was because we read, you know, there's uh a course that you follow in the synagogue when you go every week, you read certain portions every week throughout the year. It's the same every week. And so, you just read it and it's just part of what you do. It's a script, but you don't really pay attention to what it means. You just do your duty, right? And so, when Jamie shared all this with me, I said, "I never thought about what it's about. I just check off the list that we do it. And so later after this meeting,

16:55 I did go to my rabbi and say, "What is this about?" And he said, "It's about the suffering of Israel." And I said, "No, it's a prophecy about Jesus suffering on the cross." And he said, "No, it isn't. It's about the suffering of Israel." I said, "But if you look up what happens to a person during crucifixion, it's everything that happens to a person doing crucifixion." And this is like 5,000 years before crucifixion was invented and he didn't have an answer for that. And so that was a big indication to me that he didn't know. And so something was off there. So what was crazy about this was um and you can keep you should keep going. But so we spent so then we then it was like

17:40 launched into hours that night of this long discussion where she started to trutht tell we call it now. So here's these two. We're both 19 and we're so young and and these clashes of identities her her very strong identity which I had never encountered before. I was just like I'm going to present the gospel. You just make an intellectual agreement and then we'll be done with this transaction and let's get on with dating. Uh which I'm not allowed to do until you sign the contract that we're in the same group. Like you know cuz that's what God cares about. and not these deep traditions of your bloodline and where you were born and your traditions and all that like that doesn't matter. Um, and so we're and and so this is coming together and you know

18:27 as we look back on it just what was happening in that dorm room was so powerful and beautiful and we were just kind of feeling our way through it and Don was asking me but like why am I Jewish and why why why don't we sacrifice anymore and I'm like I don't know but you know here's what here's a verse I know about that and just struggling through trying to apply the kingdom to the depth of who she was rather than just do you get that if you say this prayer you don't go to hell like that's all I knew about it and she was asking at a much deeper level um and so we worked through those insecurities but tell them how what happened when you went back to your dorm okay wait before we I'm going to pick that question I'm still in shock that

19:12 it was him so did not see that coming a long way okay so you leave cuz you're upset and then what you. She tried to leave. I wouldn't let her. He said, "Wait, wait, wait. Come back. Come back. I'm sorry." He apologized, you know, and he told me to come back in. And you came back in. And I came back in. And then I started over. So the guy who brought you over is he just He left. I don't know why he knocked on the door, introduced me, and then he left. I I can't remember why he left. And this was like 10:00 at night. This was It was late at night. Yeah. Well, when you're in college, that's not that late, but it was 10 o'clock at The night is just beginning. But did you guys go on more dates or do you just break up and just hang? Well, we haven't gotten there yet. So, okay. Yeah. So, so he essentially

19:59 like intellectually assaults her. She gets offended. She tries to leave. You I said don't leave. Wait. Wait. Bring her back. Let me start again. But not with force. No. No. You don't like lock her in there. She's way more forceful than I was. You come back in. You have hours and then you go back to your dorm room. Oh, I stayed till like 3:00 in the morning. Yeah. What happened when you got back to your Because what happened was those deep insecurities. I was talking about before that caused me to try to find this belonging with all these groups. I never felt like I fit in. I'd experienced growing up some anti-semitism. I I was looking for this. So, I didn't like people knowing I was Jewish. Yeah. She didn't she didn't normally tell people she was Jewish. She just did it because I offended her. Yeah. And and and I had these deep

20:46 insecurities. And so I had to find a way to cope with this pain. And so I didn't fit in with the smart people, the athletic people, but the drinkers and the drug people. All you have to do is have a drink or smoke a joint and oh, suddenly they love you and you're in. So that became my crowd. But I didn't know it then, but it was masking this deep pain that I had of who am I? I'm going to die one day and what's going to happen to me? I had all these deep I I went to my rabbi. I went to my Sunday school teachers when I was younger. What happens to you when you die? Oh, you go to the bosom of Abraham. What does that mean to anybody? Oh, here was another one. Your soul

21:31 lives on in the memory of others. Oh, great. This is why I'm supposed to live some type of prudent moral life. But what does that mean for me? like and and for me, you just go into oblivion and you're it's dark and you're alone. But I knew there was a spirit part of me after your body's gone that would live on. What what happens to it? And nobody could answer that question for me. And it was terrifying. Yeah. And so when I when I met Jamie that night, he was the first person that touched on it, that just gave me this smidgen of hope that there there was more. But he did it by talking to me from my book, not from

22:18 some Christian New Testament. He knew enough about the Old Testament to show me things from from what I was familiar with that no rabbi or Hebrew school teacher or parent ever showed me that gave me this sense of purpose, sense of identity, sense of hope for some type of afterlife future. And my motivation was not the greatest, but God still it was just a split test. You tried the first, it didn't work. So that's right. Try the second. So, I left there at 3:00 in the morning after he showed me all these prophecies in the Old Testament that were fulfilled in the New Testament, all these messianic um psalms and scriptures. And I was walking back to my dorm room and I was

23:05 weeping. I mean, I was sobbing. I'm walking. There's nobody on campus. It's 3:00 in the morning. It's dark. And I had this literal vision of myself as an old old woman laying on my deathbed. I could still my gray hair was like up in a bun and I'm laying there on a pillow and I was weeping because I knew that Jesus was the truth, that he was the Jewish Messiah and that I couldn't have him because I was Jewish. And I didn't know a single other Jewish person in the history of the world that had embraced him as the Messiah. But I knew in my heart it was true and that I couldn't have him. And it was a huge dilemma for

23:51 me. It like I didn't fall down and pray the prayer in his room that night even though I knew in my heart it was true. And it it took me about 2 years of figuring this out. And so that's how ludicrous it is that we are trained in these formulaic methods of say this this and this and then get them to pray the prayer that you are making this huge life decision or you're asking someone to do it and it's this transaction. Let me just lead you in a in a prayer and you commit your life to Jesus. I mean this is a huge decision for people and especially especially if your identity is deep in another tradition you know

24:38 for like for me you know I you know I grew up basically in a Christian world and so it's just which Christian thing are you going to adhere to but when your identity is deep in an ancestry that died for your benefit and then you're going to become a traitor to that um just so to protect yourself That was I mean it took Donna I think after we were married maybe 5 years before she could pray in the name of Jesus. That's how deep the sense of betrayal was to her people um by embracing Jesus. That's how deep in her DNA it is. Um and of course this this was foreshadowing us being in the Muslim world. This is all the beauty of how God works is these two

25:24 19-year-olds wrestling through this in our little way and God way down the road saying, "Here we go. Here we go." It was really foreshadowing to our future. But how can you know that? Then like we're going to end up somewhere where you can't do that formula that if you do do it, you're going to get arrested and put on trial. Did we tell that story last time? Yeah. I mean, cuz we went back to that. We went back to that formulaic style. Don't ask me why, but Yeah, cuz it's programming. Yeah, it's programming. You always go back to your training, your default. You Yeah, you have like a root code that you go to when you feel like you need to figure it out. That's right. So, it took you 5 years to pray. I want

26:11 to put a bow on this story. like at what point did you get cuz there's the the heart thing where you're like I'll accept Jesus and then there's like the I'm okay with other people knowing. It seems to be two different classifications. So, how did you wrestle through that? So, it took me Jamie introduced me to some women who really helped me study the Bible. He was smart enough to get out of it. Um, back to the boyfriend, what happened to him. So, he had prayed the prayer and he was kind of like the seed that fell on the rocky soil that shot way up and then just died. And I didn't pray the prayer. But I was immediately convicted of the lifestyle we were in. And he was like, "Oh man, we're forgiven, so let's keep

26:58 on in this lifestyle." And we quickly parted ways. And then I started meeting with these women and learning the the scriptures under them. And for the first time I started praying to God in a way that wasn't some wrote memory Hebrew prayer. Um which also later this is how the Muslims pray. So I had way more in common with our Muslim friends than Jamie ever did because our religious ways are very similar. Judaism and Islam and I saw experiential answers to prayer and entered into an experiential relationship with God and more than any Bible verse or understanding. That's

27:45 what changed me is a tangible experiential encounter with God. Yeah. That's what changed me and that's what can that's why we started identity exchange because it's not intellectual information that changes your life. It's experiential encounters with God. Moses at the burning bush, you know, Gideon hearing an angel say, "You are my mighty man of valor, hearing his identity," and then leading him to save his people, Israel. But that's what really changed me. I didn't understand it all. I I didn't understand it, but I knew how it made me feel. I I couldn't explain it in my head, but I knew the transformation I felt, and it made me act differently. And that's what transformation is. I

28:30 didn't want to smoke weed anymore. I didn't want to drink on f I didn't want to go to fraternity parties anymore. And then Jamie, bless his heart, was super patient. And we didn't start dating till about two till I about two years later. And then we dated for three years. Yeah. Go ahead. She called me. We lived in different cities. And she called me one. I mean, I was praying my guts out for years, centuries. It seemed like, come on, God. Come on. Come on. Come on. And she called me one day from her city and said, "I I made the decision. I'm in. I'm I'm going to do this. I'm going to follow Christ on her own." I I knew it had to be by herself. Pray a prayer with somebody. I just She was in her Jewish community and she in that community is

29:16 where she made the decision. So yeah, then when we got back to university, then we started, you know, I started more actively pursuing. Of course, then she wasn't interested. She goes, "You know what? I've realized I don't need any of this life anymore. I don't need a guy. I don't need a boyfriend." I'm like, "Great. I don't need a guy to give me security. Fantastic. Thanks, Lord. Out of a job." Yeah. Like, so then I had to wait another year for Yeah. that to happen. But anyway, it worked out. I don't think we've ever had a cooler opening story for any podcast ever. I'm like was in shock. That was crazy. Um, okay. Are you I'm going bounce around a little bit if that's okay. Are are you are you comfortable sharing the story um about the And if you're not that's totally

30:03 fine about the Starbucks girl that she planted and cuz I want to hear this I I think people need to hear the story and I think I want to hear Donna's side of the story as well. Oh man. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean I'll I'll I can start how I told it and you can tell because I don't even know how you actually met her. Okay. Yeah. Um, yeah. So, I we were living um in Atlanta at the time and I working in Atlanta and I came home from work one day and there was this girl in our house, this young girl in her 20s she was I think and this she was skinny and she had spiked red hair, dyed red hair and she

30:50 had tattoos and piercings. really a cool looking person, but just not what I expected when I walked in our house. We only have sons. And she's sitting in at our in our kitchen. And I just looked at her and I was like, "Hi." And she's, "Hello." And I cuz we we have had people stay at our house before. And I said, "Who are you?" And she said her name. And I said, "Uh" and she goes, "I met Donna at the Starbucks where I work." and she she led me in hearing from God and understanding identity and I didn't have anywhere to live so she said we I could live with you guys and I'm like oh okay so that's how she came into our lives and you want to say yeah you want

31:36 me to tell the back we met her I yeah yeah so this um would have been about uh 10 years after we were had ourselves undergone this huge transformation of learning to hear the hear from God and discover our true identities. And that happened in Indonesia. And then we lived in Baghdad and then um and then Jordan. And then we were living in Atlanta and and still uh going back and forth from into Jordan and Israel, developing a course about this and teaching it overseas, developing a course about how to do this with Muslims and um working with the church in

32:22 Atlanta. So I was in the Starbucks. We lived in this house and it had four bedrooms and all our kids, our youngest had just gone off to college. So we always had people coming and going and living with us in this big house. And you know, one thing when I would go anywhere, I would just ask God to highlight people to me. You know, two of the questions that absolutely changed our lives are, God, what do you want me to know? And then take a minute to listen for what he wants you to know about anything. And then what do you want me to do? Whatever he tells you, what do he wants you to know? Then ask the follow-up question. Now, what do you want me to do? And so I never want a human being just to be an

33:11 object. And so there's always a reason for meeting people, even a cashier in a grocery store or the cashier at Starbucks. So there was a Starbucks that we used to go to all the time and I would always see this gal and so the Lord had highlighted her to me and so I this particular day. God, what do you want me to know? What do you want me to do? So I became sort of friendly with her and this was maybe the fourth or fifth time I had talked to her just trying to get to know her a little bit. And so I had asked God to really show me who she was in her true self because outwardly she was a little crazy. She was a little out there, you know, and it's like you could see that

33:59 she was trying to project this certain image. And but I wanted to know what was underneath that, who was the real person. And I was just asking God to give me glimpses of that. And you know, I could see that she was outgoing, that she was relational, that she was really cou not brave, but courageous. brave just means like bravado, but courageous comes from the heart. And so I just asked her one day like, "When's your break and would you would you sit with me and drink a coffee during your break?" And so she told me when her break was and I stayed and waited and she sat with me and I just asked her, I said, "You know, one of my daily practices is hearing from God. and I

34:46 would love to sit with you and just ask God what he wants you to know. And she was so open to it, you know, she was super excited. And so we started doing that and she got a sense of our identity. It was world changer and she was super excited. And so we just built this relationship. And then I I found out that she was in a really tough living situation and with really difficult people that were taking advantage of her and she didn't have a lot of money. And so, you know, I live in a fourbedroom house and there's two people and we live there for free cuz this church was paying for us to live there. Like it's a no-brainer. I didn't really have to pray about it, you know.

35:32 And so apparently you didn't. or discuss it with anyone. Apparently, Jamie and I sort of have this unwritten code that we don't really have to ask each other. It is unwritten. Undisussed, unwritten, for permission to do things. Never. I love it. Um, usually it's only a little contentious when it involves giving away money from my side. I know. That's right. Yeah. Exactly. Anyway. Yeah. So then, you know, it's free. So then Jamie comes home and you Yeah. Then she's sitting there and um Yeah, she was she's Donna's brought Yeah, you've brought a few people. You've brought a few people. Mostly criminals. Yeah. Mostly mine don't work out. Donna's work out. Donna brings

36:19 people that end up overseas with us. You've done it more than once um in is to Hebrew Hebrew University. Yeah, she was fantastic. Anyway, I love the fact check there though. That was nice. Nicely done. Lulu Lemon. Who else? Lululemon cashier. She was amazing. She still is. All of them are. Anyway, um so yeah. So, so she's living at her house and she was really great. She was creative. She was talented. But she would do interesting things like like one time I was walking down our hallway and Donna had pictures of our family, you know, down the hallway and I noticed that there was she had cut out a picture of herself, her head, and put it in every picture in our hallway. all our family pictures. Now we have three boys. So we have all these boys in her little red head. Her little head like

37:05 photobombed in every picture. That is hilarious. And that was like almost like Donna like I've arrested people that do this kind of thing like being over. Good thing she was super cute. She was Yeah, that was like getting weird. Anyway, so so she's with us and she's, you know, she pays attention to everything that we say. And we had Yeah, she was a sponge. we were working on this project where we had been invited to go to Kosovo in that conflict in Kosovo and um and there was a um um a a sort of a militant Muslim group because of the co Kosvar conflict. So the the Kosvar Muslims, you know, and the Serbian that whole thing had

37:50 happened and the Kosvar liberation army was a Muslim army that had all been settled, but there was a sort of a militant group stirring up again. And so the Kosvar government had asked us if we would bring a team to quell that without military force because they didn't want to use military and start that all up again. So I asked them what's the age range of the group that's where the militants are kind of stirred up and they said it was young you know 18year-old range high school basically high school young college and I thought well if we were going to do that we need to raise up a high school college team to put inside that group you can't take a bunch of older people and try and do it we need to like put the same age group in among them so that they can be the influencers so we started working on

38:37 that which made it hard because we needed to find parents that would let us take their high school. It's like taking the youth group. You know, we're going to take youth group. Yeah. Not to Nicaragua, but to or Mexico, but to a war zone with real militants, militants, whatever that word is, angry people, gang people. And um and I was told that the the attempt the year before for the group that whoever was were doing it, that the Muslims had burned down the building they were staying in. So it was pretty hostile. Um and so um so I had so it was it was a pretty intense interview process trying to find the right kids, the right parents that would let them go how we were going to predict um guarantee their safety. Isn't that

39:23 funny? Trying to in the Christian life, we guarantee your safety. Like that doesn't even go together. But that's the kind of Christianity we want. Um I think Jesus said that. Yeah, didn't he? I guarantee if you follow me, you'll be safe. who was the opposite. Alen Alen, what you Yeah, he's not kind, but he's not safe or something like that. Um, and so, but we we got a group. It was pretty amazing. Anyway, so we're discussing all this and planning it and training these kids and our the girl at our house, she hears me talking about it and she says, um, she says, "Jamie, I I know you're planning this trip and I would really like to be a part of this." Um, Donna prayed with me and I know my identity is

40:08 world changer and I I think I should be a part of this trip. And I she she had grown up on the street in like New Orleans, I think, right in her early in her life. And she was tough. She was super street smart. And I just didn't know her well enough. And so I said, "Well, you know, the like I know who we're training and I know the people and I just don't know if I I don't think this is right for you this time in your life." And she would just not let it she would not let it go. And everything Donna had said to her, she would say back to me, which drove me crazy. Well, Donna said that if we listen to God, and I'm like, I Yeah, okay. I know. And uh and I'm really part of your family. See, I'm in those pictures right there. And I'm like, "Yeah, you're not really part

40:55 of our family like that. You stuck your head in those pictures." And you're giving her like the nice answer. But in what's really going on in your head in that moment? What are you really thinking? What's your honest? She would get us all killed. That's really what I'm thinking because she didn't have a filter. You know what I mean? She's very uninhibited and didn't have a filter. And the the Muslim world is so conservative. Yeah. And she was just a wild card. spiked red hair, tattoos all up and down her arms. She got stand out and pierced. She'd be like the worst thing you could put in the middle of a of a of a Islamic. You're trying not to stand out. Militant group. Yeah. In a war zone. In a war zone. Like Yeah. She would be like post war. She would just represent everything that you don't want to represent. She just countered

41:41 everything that you want to look. You want to come in quiet, really subdued, really spiritual, and she just was she wanted to bring her guitar and sing, you know? I was like, "We're just it's not like Woodstock. We're not doing that." And so, and I really loved her though. I really loved her, but I just was kept saying, "You can't. We can't. We can't do it." And she would just say, "I pray. I feel like God wants me to. You told us Donna says to listen to the voice of God. God's inviting me into this." And I'm like, "Oh my gosh." I said, "You don't have a passport, do you? I'm getting a passport." I don't know if she had been convicted of felonies. I just had no idea about her, but she got a passport. And I got a passport. I'm like, "Great." Um, but eventually I just decide I had to let her go. I mean, she was just too sweet and Donna was zero support and on on my side. And um, she's like feeding

42:30 the opposition. Yeah. Donna's like I'm like, Donna, one thing Donna has to me is like, we got Don always pulls me aside and we got to we got to be on the same page. And I'm like, what page is your page? Cuz I'm on my page. What page are you on? Like you mean get on your page is what you mean. Not like the same page, your page, you and her page. That's the page you want me to be on. That's right, buddy. I know. And so I lost. And so I said, "Okay, you can go. You can go, but you have to stay right with me the whole time. I promise I'll stay right with you." And um Don was like, "I think this is the I think this is the right decision." I said, why didn't I go? I don't know why I didn't go. That's what I said. Like, yeah, you think this is the right decision. And I'm really trying to remember. Why didn't I go on that show? That's even worse. It's like you guys are going to have a blessed

43:16 times like Georgia Christians. You're going to have a blessed time. I can't remember why I didn't go. Yeah. You were afraid because she was going We'll keep going to the story, but I just want to say real fast that seeing you guys together gives me so much hope for my future and we are going to be amazing. You already I'm so grateful. I promise. Oh, this is so Let me tell you all the things we've agreed on in our life. Nothing. Our thing our we could not be more opposite. No. And our our answer to God is yo. That's how fast I say yes and she says no. That's how it's just one word. Yo. And then we have to work it out from there cuz our our whole decision-making process. Okay. You said no and I said

44:02 yes. Is there anything more we can say beyond that than let's just kind of go forward with a no and a yes and see if they can't come together. And they do. Yeah. And the no protects us from killing ourselves. And the yes pro we because Jamie never thinks about where are they going to go to school, how are we going to pay for it, what are we going to tell the Jewish parents when we move to Baghdad. He doesn't think about those things. Well, Don Don always says, "If I hadn't married you, I'd be a rich doctor's wife on Prozac and bored out of my mind and I and I would be dead." So that that's how that's how our relationship works. I keep her off for a Zack and she keep and poor and she keeps me alive. Keep me alive. Yeah. So that's how we work. So good. Yeah. So she wins. So she goes Yeah. So D, they all the women they win

44:48 and so we go. Yes. So we're So we have the group. That was a big Yes. We have the group together. And so my strategy is because I'm trained in covert strategy is okay. I'm not going to win this battle, but I can win in the end. And so I get this little 14-year-old girl who's just the sweetest, most innocent, pure thing. Um, and I say to her, she she this is her first trip. And she does exactly what I say. And I say to her, "Hey, listen. I need you to I need see the girl with the red hair and the tattoos. Your job is to stay with her every second of this trip. And it's like a special mission. And your job is to report to me everything that she says and does. Don't you ever lead her side. Leave her side. Okay? You tell me.

45:34 Report back to me. That's your job. She needs mentoring. You're you disciple her. You're you're with me. You tell me everything she does. And then I tell the girl, the redhead, can you keep an eye on her because she's young. She's not as street smart as you. So like I glue them together. So I have this little reporting spy with it. I'm like, okay. because she won't disobey me, the younger one. And so I put them together. It was hilarious. So, and then on the flight over, I make the redhead sit right next to me just so I can keep my eye on her. So, we're flying over there and she says to me, the redhead, she says, "Hey, Jamie, I've been praying about this and uh you know, I I I've grown up on the streets and I like I think I understand this stuff." And I'm like, "Oh my gosh." And

46:21 she said, "I have a strategy of what we should do when we get there." And I said, "No, you don't. You do not have a strategy. Your job is not to have a strategy. Your job is to go and learn staying next to me and protecting the 14-year-old. That's your job. You That's your job. You don't have to have a strategy." And he says, "Yeah, but no, but I have a strategy. Can I just tell you my strategy?" Okay. What's your strategy? It's what Donna did to me in Starbucks. And I'm like, "Oh my gosh, Donna, who's at home?" And wait, let me just say another thing about Donna. Come on. Wait. No. It's funny. one time and she has Donna has gone with me everywhere we've ever gone except this she's this one trip but so we did this work in the Sahara desert in the worst place we've ever been the absolute worst job we've ever done the UN rates it the worst refugee camp in the world yeah the Muslims are so difficult there

47:07 any horrible and so one time I went without Donna um and so and so we flew together to Paris twice we've been together yeah we have been together but so one time I went without her cuz it was we had to do something and she couldn't come. And so me and the guys that went were down in the camp and Donna went to Paris. She flew with us to Paris and then she stayed in Paris with a friend with with a friend. So we're down in the middle of the Sahara and we're out in this place. We're and we're trying to eat this camel meat that the hair is still on the camel like and we're trying and we're all like so nauseous. Don't forget the sand the And Donna sends me a picture of what they're eating in Paris. Oh no. Right. She good. She goes we're having such a

47:54 great time. Anyway, that's our relationship. She said just so you feel better. So anyway, so we're beef bun. I know. Can I ask one thing that I'm not sure you already answered it? Was there a specific reason? Maybe you already answered this, but is there a specific reason you brought like 14, 15 year olds on these types of trips? because the because the it was a youth trip because it was youth that was causing all the trouble cuz that's So So when that's who's recruited into these recruiters recruit these young people. So what we wanted to do is take away their capacity to recruit the young people. Oh, so that's why you brought the young kids. Yeah. So So if a foreign agent comes in to recruit young people and the young people say we don't want to be recruited, that's the end of the movement. Wow. You can't stop the

48:40 recruiters. You'll never stop them. But if there's no one to recruit, the thing ends. Yeah. To start an influence among young people. So you're on the plane. She's about to share a strategy. She's going to share a strategy. Her strategy is she said, "I'm going to do what Donna did to me. I'm going to walk up and down the street in the city, the Muslim city, and just ask Muslims if they've ever heard God speak. And if they say no, then I'm just going to say, "Do you want to hear him speak right now?" And then I'll just pray with them, and when they hear God speak, that they'll be transformed. That's what I'm going to do. And I said, 'N no, you're not going to do that because you'll get us all killed because they're not going to respond to that. But Donna did it and I responded to I know, but that's Starbucks in Georgia. This is a different country and it's not going to work in that in that

49:25 situation. And your job is to watch her and she I don't want her out doing that stuff. And so you're not going to do that. You're not going to do we're not going to do that. It'll never work that way. And she just says, "Okay." So, we get there, we land, we get there, we get there in the, you know, afternoon and I tell everyone, "Look, look, just everyone just you're jetlagged. Just chill out. Go to bed. We'll reassemble in the morning at breakfast and then we'll start and, you know, we'll talk about what we're going to do, how we're going to work this." So, I had told them, you know, when we were training them, like when you get in, when we start working with the students, they're going to invite you to their house and go. When they invite you, you go. And when you go to their house, they're going to ask you to spend the night. And when they ask you to

50:11 spend the night, you spend the night with them because but we're going to work up to that. Don't ju just we're going to work up to that. But once they invite you into the family, get in the family because that's a great honor. And we want to be inside those families. So, when they invite you in, stay with them. Person of peace. Stay with them. So that I had told him all that. So we land um go get to the place where we're going to stay in this hotel and I just I just that's it. I don't you know they they all check in. I make sure everyone's in their rooms. I go to bed. So when I go to bed, the red says to the 14-year-old, "Let's go out and walk around. See if we can meet anybody." And the 14-year-old, she says, "Okay." So they go out and walk up and down the street. So they're

50:58 walking up and down the street and they go into this bookstore where the the redhead thinks maybe there's someone here that speaks English. So she goes into this bookstore. She goes up to this covered Muslim woman, young woman who's the cashier and says, "Do you speak English?" The woman says, "I do." And the redhead says, "Have you ever heard God speak to you?" And the woman, the Muslim, just staring at her like, "Who are you?" And this little blonde little 14-year-old who has this gorgeous Georgia accent that just smiles, you know, and um and this red head with all these tattoos and these piercings just standing there. Have you ever heard God speak to you? And and no, do you want to

51:43 hear him speak to you right now? And she says, "Do you do you would you come to my house?" And the redhead's like, "Oh my gosh, it's working. It's just like Jamie said." Yes, we'll go to the house. And the 14-year-old's like, "Yeah." And she's, the 14-year-old's like, "Well," and the little redhead says, "This is what Jamie said. If they invite you, remember what Jamie said? If they invite you to the house, you should go to the house." And the 14's like, "Well, yeah, that's right." Off they go to this this girl takes him to their house. They go to the house. They walk into the house. It's it's her grandfather and their family. So, you can imagine this Muslim grandfather. He looks up and here comes his his grand covered granddaughter who's in her 20s and and and this red

52:29 head with spiked red hair and all these tattoos and this little 14-year-old and um she comes in, the Muslim daughter, and says, "These girls walked into my bookstore and asked if if we wanted to hear God's if we'd ever heard God's Allah speak to us, and if we didn't, did we want to hear him speak?" And the grandfather's like, "Really? and do they want to stay for dinner? And so, yeah. So, the Muslims are very hospitable like this. And so, they stay for dinner. And then they then he says, um, do you guys want to spend the night? And the 14-year-old's like, well, and she, the redhead says, this is exactly what Jamie said would happen. We're doing exactly what he said. We should spend the night. Isn't that what he said? And she's like, well, that is what he said. Okay. Well, and she knows, well, I'm supposed to stay with you. So, J. So, it's she's all like, okay. So

53:16 they decide to spend the night. So they get up into the room and it's the Muslim girl and her cousin. Now there's two. And you have no idea. No, I'm think they're at the hotel. I think they're all in their room. And at this point, the Muslim family, they think they're talking about talking to Allah, God, not Yahweh God. Well, that's in in in the language they're speaking, the Christians and the Arab Muslims say the same word for God. There's no difference. The second Arab Christian would say Allah and a Muslim Christian would a Muslim would say you have to think of it like before there was Islam. They use the word Allah. Just the Arabic word for God is Allah. It's the same. God doesn't have anything to do with Islam. Yeah. It's from the it's it's like Dios in Spanish means God. It's just it's from Elohim. It's in in Aramaic it's aloha and in Arabic it's Allah. Doesn't

54:02 have a It does not like from this group or this group. It's just the derivative of the word. Got it. So, um, so they're in the room. Yeah. I don't know what's going on. And so, so the girl said, so the redhead says, "Do you want to hear God speak to you right now?" And the two cousins are like, "Yeah." So she, and the 14-year-old's there, and so and the 14-year-old's actually quite good at this. I didn't share this thing, but she's actually quite good at this. The 14-year-old, well, she that's later. Yeah. So, so the redhead says, "Praise and she says,"God, these girls have probably never heard your voice." And so out of your kindness, this is how we teach it. Not because we are righteous, but because you are merciful, oh Lord, Daniel

54:48 chapter 9, will you speak to them? Will you reveal yourself to them in whatever way you want to? And then they just then you don't say anything else. And you just wait in silence. And um I I always ask people like why do why won't we do this with people? Why won't we just ask them God would you just speak to this person and just sit there in silence? Why wouldn't we do that? Why do we feel like we have to explain everything to people? Because we're afraid that God doesn't speak to people. That's why. Mhm. So we don't give God a chance to talk. So anyway, so she stands there and she waits and the the the cousins say, "We don't hear anything. Nothing." And so the redhead's like, "Okay, that's okay." And so she goes to lay down to bed. She's exhausted. The

55:33 14-year-old lays down bed. The two girls, they all go to bed, which is what I love about her the right. Can I just interject? Like, why didn't that bother her? Yeah, that's what I That God didn't show up. I know. You know, do you know why? Because God doesn't just capricciously show up sometimes. He's with us all the time and we don't know his timing of why he does things when he does or when he doesn't. But the thing about the red head, she knew that from her own experience of me praying with her. Sometimes she didn't get this immediate answer. Sometimes it came the next day when she was taking a walk or sometimes it came at night when she was having a dream. it doesn't always come

56:21 the way we expect it to come and she knew that and she didn't allow disappointment to block everything. She doesn't get her identity from what happens right her she knew her idea of success was not the right idea and so it didn't phase her that it didn't happen right away. She knew that God would speak when God when was the right time for God to speak. So it doesn't phase her. So she had the experience to back up the question. That's courage. Yeah. It's like God, I'm here to say he'll speak to you and then when he does, let me know. And I'm going to bed now. Is it right now? No. Okay, I'm going to bed. I love that. I love how she does that. That's what was so great about her. And so she goes to bed and then she's asleep and she wakes up, you know, in the night

57:07 and and the one of the girls is stand one of the Muslim girls is standing up in the middle of the room. The red head wakes up in the room. Yeah, the red and and sees the Muslim girl standing up and she's talking in the room. She's having a conversation with someone. She's whispering. And so the redhead is watching her talking and she says, "Are you okay? Are you okay? What are you doing?" And and the Muslim girl looks at her and says, "Yeah, I'm okay. I'm just talking to this guy." And and the redhead says, "Do you know who it is?" And she said, "No, but he's really nice." And then she knows, the redhead knows. And she goes, "Ask him his name." And she says, "What's your name?" And then she said, and she looks back at the redhead, she goes, "It's Jesus." And then the redhead goes, "Okay, have fun."

57:54 And goes back to sleep. She gets up the next She wakes up the next morning. And it's her and the 14-year-old. She wakes the 14-year-old. We go downstairs and the whole family's assembled downstairs all excited because the cousin came downstairs and told the whole family that Jesus had come to their room that night and spoken to her because of the redhead and the 14-year-old being in there. And now the whole family wanted to hear Jesus speak to the whole family. And so they just prayed over the whole family like that. So that's going so that's going on. So that was the beginning of the whole movement in that city was that that family right there with the grandfather. So I wake up in the hotel and I go down to breakfast in

58:40 the dining hall and I I'm looking around. I'm counting and I'm like, "Oh no, where is the red? Oh no." And I'm I'm like start to panic and I'm like, "She's not here and the 14-year-old's not here. Oh my gosh, where are they? And they come walking in and um and the 14-year-old comes up to me and I'm like, "Where were you?" And she the 14-year-old says, she says to the name of the redhead, she goes, "Jesus came into the room last night in the room where we were staying." And and Jesus talked to the girl there and and nobody woke me up. Nobody woke me up to tell me that Jesus came into the room. I

59:25 slept. He sat on my bed and nobody woke me up. and she's really upset about it. And I'm like, "What are you talking about? Where were you?" And then I look at the redhead. I'm like, "What did you do? Where were you?" And she tells me the whole story of what happened and and then how the whole family like this whole family has been transformed by that and the whole story of the whole thing. And then I verify it with a 14-year-old. And uh and so when I go to talk and I realize that what she has done is exactly the right thing to do for this city. And so when I stand up in front of the our whole team of young people, I said, I've thought about this and I have a new strategy of what we're going to do in the city today. We're going to walk up and down the street in the city. Oh

1:00:11 my god. We're going to talk to young Muslims and we're going to say, "Have you ever heard God speak to you?" Especially to the students. and and when they when they say they haven't, we're going to pray with them. And that's what we did for 10 days with students and the it was so powerful what happened among those kids and the and then they got we got invited into the families. I went to meet the grandfather of the first family. It was so powerful what happened in that city that that at the end of the 10 days when we went to get on the bus to go all back to the airport, the fathers were the Muslim fathers and grandfathers were out at the bus stop crying because we were leaving cuz we were leaving that town. The the mayor of that city came to faith and he started a

1:00:59 sister relationship with the city in Georgia. this the this the town in Georgia where the kids came from. They have it till this day and they started a student exchange program with that town which exists till this day and that's where the big movement in um Kosovo started was in that city because of that red head and that 14year-old that's where it started. Wow. So when you say how many Muslims have you seen come to faith, it's like that the multiplication of it through one person who's radically on fire. So what's so cool is like if you go back to our story that prophetic nature, fast forward what 30 years. Our story happened in in the early 80s maybe 1980

1:01:49 79 right and it's that experiential encounter not the formulaic prayer it's the experiential encounter that changes somebody's life like you can't go in and intellectually explain a religious concept and force somebody to pray a prayer a transactional prayer that doesn't do it in fact the people that went in did you say to the same city before another group. They burn the building down. They chase the people out and burn the building down. Anyway, all right. Time cuz he's got a roll. Sure. Yeah, we can take a bathroom break. Nice to meet you. Thanks for coming. Yeah, I'll go to the bathroom if you're going to the bathroom. Yeah, go for it. I don't know. We did a We were

1:02:34 at Kansas, University of Kansas, and I I don't know if I told you this, and we I got invited to do a thing for campus, some campus ministry. There's like 500 students and I went in there and I was just doing a pretty Christian thing on identity. And at the break I did this exercise where you let let's give your false identities to Jesus. And we we we did half half of it where you gave your false identities to picture Jesus. And then I stopped like okay when we come back we're going to talk about how to receive your true identity. And this Muslim guy comes up to me at the break and he's holding his false identities in his hand. Wow. because he can't they're not allowed to visualize a prophet. And he's really upset and he goes, "I know my false identities. I can't give them away." And he's really upset and I'm

1:03:19 like, "Oh my gosh, there's a Muslim in here. Who brought a Muslim?" But these guys had brought their Muslim roommate. And and so I was like, "Oh no." And so he was so troubled. And I'm like, he said, "What? How can I'm a Muslim. How can I get rid of these? I can't visualize a prophet." And I'm like, actually, you can, but I would have it would take me time to explain it to you how you can. And I thought, okay. I said, let me just think about it for a second, but let me think about it and I'll I'm not going to let you go. Don't worry. So, I'm sitting there and I'm saying, Lord, what do I do? How do I do this? Because I was brought here to talk to 500 Christians and there's one Muslim and to to talk to him, I'd have to ignore the 500 Christian and just talk to him. What do you want me to do?

1:04:06 And I was really troubled by I was really sad for him. And and so they started singing the song to open up the next session which was how to receive your true identity. And they're singing that song about leave the 99. And I'm asking the Lord, what do you want to do? And they keep singing that phrase. And I'm like, please Lord, just give me a clear. And he's like, leave the 99. And I'm like, are you telling me to disregard every person in here and just speak in the whole next section of that one Muslim? And the Lord's like, "Yes, but I would have to use the Quran the whole next session in front of all these Christians." Yes, I would do that. So I was like, "All right." So I went up there and I said, "How many of you love that song?" Well, we all love that song. I mean, how do you think Jesus would leave the 99 to find one person? Yeah,

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