EP156 | Krisis Liga M, Revolusi Harimau Malaya, Pemilihan PKR, ASEAN 2025

0:00 This will be seen, I think, as a very important moment in the history of justice or PKR where what happens after this will determine whether this is a generational renewal that gives certain figures an opportunity to shine or this will be the moment where many PKR supporters themselves will start to really lose faith in the party and welcome to episode

0:48 156 Come out for a moment with me KJ. I am Shahril Hamdan. Shahril, the EPL is over. I want to say thank you to Manchester United, never in my life have I felt that way about Manchester United. But because Manchester United beat Aston Villa, Aston Villa's defeat caused Newcastle to go to the Champions League even though Newcastle itself lost. So thank you Newcastle in the end in what position? Five. So okay, we won the Carabao Cup, the top five entered the Champions League. It's a good season. There was a time three weeks ago when I was hoping to reach number two. But it's I mean we thank you for the good service this time. I was just

1:35 about to say that even though the EPL season is over, my team, Man United, still has a chance to lift the Maybank Challenge trophy. Cup. Oh yes. It's a serious cup. I'm sure. Yes. One. Thank God. All Stars and when this episode comes out tomorrow, the 28th of the month, that night I will go to Bukit Jalil to watch Man United lift this very prestigious trophy. Be proud, yes. I got I went for meet and greet just now. There were two meet and greets. I went to the one apparently near Adidas TRX some more of the stars there. Once the other one Rasmus Holland was there.

2:22 And you know sometimes when we meet a player, it's the player we curse but he was so now I'm converted to a Rasmus Oland fan. Although I think maybe he's going to leave for Italy. Anyway, yes that's the way it is. It's a pretty lackluster end to the season because all we want to see is who gets into the Champions League. Yes. Because the relegated one has been determined, the Champion has also been determined. That's right. So let's see how next season might be even more interesting. Yes. Yes. And the most frustrating thing as a Man United supporter, we have to wait for another one season to hope for Europe. Basically next year there's no European football for us. It's true. Yes. So basically

3:08 you know one season burn. Yes. Just like that. If not relegated next season. Well, based on the current form, I would put it as a pass. Anyway, let's see, let's see. Er, let's start with this ball because er, in this episode we have a guest. This guest is someone I respect greatly, he has the views of a commentator, pundit, commentator and also an analyst, a sports journalist, especially a football journalist. I always follow his er on various platforms and I hope we can discuss not only but what is perhaps more interesting for KS viewers and listeners is regarding the situation of the

3:54 local league. Hmm. We are certainly surprised by the various announcements from Kedah, from Perak, from Pahang. Perhaps for the first time we see these giant teams, we can say giant teams. These are big teams, big names in Malaysian football. They didn't. Well, it was announced because they couldn't get a license to participate in the league next year by MFL, FAM. A issued a statement that some said this is the end of the road. Some say they are in hibernation, whatever that means. So we welcome our guest today,

4:41 Kish. His real name is Kishan Sundaren. Yes. Aa journalist, aa sports host, producer, broadcaster with Astro. How are you, bro? I'm good. I'm good. Thank you so much for having me. I listen to you guys pretty frequently. So it's an honor for me to participate in today's podcast. Thank you. Kish in the EPL. Hmm. Who's the team? I'm ashamed to say it now. Say it's Man United. Manchester United. Unfortunately it is Man United. The team that lost in the Europa League final the other day in a very disappointing match but also the team that is on Malaysian soil at this moment. So it's quite exciting as well. There must be supporters who went to see it, 60,000 or more, and there are still many who are

5:27 passionate about it. A while ago near the United Hotel I met a few Malaysian fans who live in Melbourne, all the way. By the way, I told them we might do a live show in Melbourne, they were excitedly waiting for us. But Kish, okay, let's talk about United first. I understand that Kish went to a meet and greet at Adidas TRX and Kish told me that almost all the players wanted to be anywhere but there. That 's a sour face, isn't it? Yes. I mean I don't blame them. Some of them are a bit tired because it's been a very long season. A very mentally draining for a lot of them. Various types of challenges, various types of criticism, being cursed at, being teased, all sorts of things. So to finish the

6:13 season, there is the disappointment of the Europa League final as well. So there's so much negativity around the club. On top of that, many people may be tired and have to come here and then there are so many events. So some of them looked really really tired with the exception of who else but Captain Bruno Fernandez who was always ready to play the role of club ambassador. That's why he's a captain right? Yes. But Kish, what are Kish's views and comments regarding United's season? I mean it was tahu it was really bad. couldn't have been worse other than being relegated lah. Does this mean that there has to be a spring cleaning, that everything has to be thrown away, but does the club have the capacity to

6:59 buy a new team? It's very tricky. I mean, we looked at Nottingham Forest doing it a couple of years ago and fast forward two years later, they qualified for Europe for the first time in time. Chelsea have done it in recent times as well. Copy a whole team. something very tricky. But I think from a Man United's point of view, many will use the example of Ruben Amorim. In his first season at Sporting Lisbon, he sold almost 12 to 14 players, but the reality at Sporting Lisbon was probably easier because contracts were not as long and it was a lot easier to move players of lower value. But at Man United you've got players on crazy high wages. So the process of copying the team becomes more complicated. So I don't think it will be as easy as that. I think there will be a

7:45 concerted effort to change key components of the team and strengthen certain areas. But we've got to give it time to use the challenge at Man United on a completely different scale compared to the challenge faced by Rubana Morim at Sporting Lisbon . What is the underlying problem that has allowed it to get worse over the past 10 years ? Hmm. He can't blame one manager just because various managers have tried. Something is rotten in the club, right? What do you think? I think for the first time since Sir Alex Ferguson left the team, I think this is the first season where we or Man United started thinking about football first. This is probably the first

8:30 season. Before this it's been 10 years since United didn't I mean football football has moved so much towards data all clubs even the smaller clubs in smaller leagues heavily into data in scouting player performance various things United don't even have a data team and they're only building it now according to Sergim Redcliff I think my favorite quote to probably sum up the story all together would be from Yan clock has a book from a bunch of years ago. he told how around the same time he held a meeting with Ed Woodward aa from Man United and also Liverpool's a CEO CEO and he said the pitch from Ed Woodward as if he was painting the picture that Man United is like Disneyland you come to us who do you

9:18 want we will buy them for you buuse we are that powerful right Liverpool has a CEO and Liverpool has a management team the the pitch that they gave Yan Club is that come to Enfield and our main mission is to reactivate the cop, reactivate the city of Liverpool, strengthen the relationship between the community and and the football club. And I think that alone sums up where the main priorities of Man United over the last 10, 12, 13 years and they are I suppose bearing the consequences of it now I think. Yes. Because if we look at the rise of Liverpool, there has to be I mean grudgingly say respect there is a spirit, there is spirit behind this. It's not a I mean tak you know

10:05 compare to other clubs but it's not like a Man City victory or it's not like a Chelsea victory. You know what I mean? It's a it's a the victory of the city, the victory of the corp, victory of this tribe, Liverpool tribe. And maybe after Ferguson we have lost our soul and identity. Because usually in places like Manchester, Liverpool, traditionally the football team Newcastle is a big part of the local identity. Different from the clubs in London where maybe there's less of that apart from maybe West Ham some of this different. Not not the not not the Chelsea is not the but Man City never really there is a following Man City there is a following but maybe the new owner doesn't really want to tap into that

10:51 it's very rasmatiz very cosmopolitan international not as organic right he has that growth yes I guess how Sharil feels about his experience in Newcastle because Newcastle is the owner now is of course PIF right Saudis I think is it you feel it's a Saudi club So I'm not speaking as someone who sits rough. Er, but yes, as far as I understand, it is still seen as a local club and maybe this reflection is a little bit political. Maybe a reflection of the socioeconomics of a place. When a place is seen as Newcastle, it is not a glamorous place and the financial or economic status of the people there is not high. It's not like London and I guess increasingly not like Manchester.

11:36 So the local feeling is very strong compared to certain clubs. Manchester had maybe to point both Man City and Man United appear to be less hm from the outside looks less connected to the local community than maybe 30 40 50 years ago. Yes. I think Manchester United as a club sort of became I think over the last 10 12 13 years his priority is more to him people have a globalized image. A lot of it was dead as opposed to caring for the actual roots of your institution which are the people based in Manchester. people who perhaps don't fly 24,000 km to watch your team but the people who buy a season ticket and got your games I don't I don't see the buy is the the the

12:23 seats remember they were the just behind Ferguson there's a school of thought that says that United went down not buuse Alex Ferguson left but they left because those brothers but I don't know this for sure but listen to the story he was transferred to another seat. But I don't know I don't know I'm sure the camera would have caught them once at least. They were definitely part of my childhood . But maybe to close this particular part of KJ's discussion with Kish, the Manchester player is from Manchester. I don't know anyone from Kobe? Yes Kobe has a few academy but not to the generation of the 92. Generation 92 generation was part of the romance in

13:08 Newcastle now. It's Denb. So that's our sort of claim to sort of roots. And I think just to just one additional point, I think Danburn is the perfect example of why despite having a new foreign ownership, Newcastle doesn't feel like a foreign club because there was n't all this. You know when City got taken over first, first he made a statement signing Robinho directly and then there were all these Brazilians coming in and you know the look and feel of the team just changed overnight, right? But Caso is very careful and meticulous with that thing. Just quickly on, still on United, we rarely get to talk like this. I'm gna you know some players just a few players what do you think we should do with them? Okay Rashford.

13:56 I love Rashford by the way. I really miss Marcus Rashford. But for his own sake, I think the time has come for a separation both for him and for the club because I I don't think the fan base h you know modern fan base especially on social media they are super super vile very aggressive. Maky Hamon is sometimes it can really have an impact on a player and I think Marcus Rashford it's time for him to just seek new pastures and rediscover his love for football. It feels like he did that with Villa. Yes. Ghana. Yes. I think that's almost like a foregone conclusion. I think I think he is leaving. According to reports from David Onstein a couple days ago. Apparently Ruban Amarim had told him it was time to find a new destination. Buse his brother is

14:42 quite toxic. They always post cryptic things on social media after games. So that doesn't help the team, right? Rasmus outloan him loan him yeah to Italy as you mentioned just to again but why would you even hold on to him he expensive because expensive is one but I also think it's pretty decent I think it's very easy for fans if we use it it was nice to you I don't like it if we look at just compare his performance last few games look at YouTube last few games and then post that thing with his performances early of last season especially against Bayern Munich the Champions League two different players right and that's doesn't change in the course of a season lost confidence l confidence but he doesn't look like a

15:27 striker who can score 20 goals a season ah he looks like a 10 15 best but you know that mold of the holding that can hold Emil Huski yes yes if in the old days it was Emil Huski yes so I think yes loan for Rasmus and then Onana again I'm I'm a big fan of Andre Onana I think it's I think he's struggling. Did you see that Spurs goal? How could he jump so high? I really think he's struggling. I think this season I can't help but criticize him. You have he has to deal with the criticism. But again I also think like I mean this is the guy that in the Champions League final was one of the best players for Inter Milan against Manchester City. If the striker is not confident, he will not score. It's okay. If the keeper is not confident. Yes. So

16:13 that's why I say even though I'm a fan of him, but I also think it's very difficult for him for a goalkeeper to be given time at Man United will never happen. So probably it's best to separate. Yes. But the conversation between these two Man United fans made me realize tragic justify and defend very average players you know buuse we are an average club right now. Ah that's why I wanted to hear. Thank you very much. Okay. Reality is not that on video. We got that on video. Ouch. Yes. Yes. Painful. But that's the truth because yes, we won the FA Cup, there was the Karaba Cup here and there. Celebrating that, right? Celebrating some mediocrity. Yes. Because yes, it's true. It's been that

17:00 long. Hmm. Since we can truly be said to be one of the best teams in the Premiership. Okay, T. That's it. Let's move on to the real topic we want to discuss, which is about local football. Hmm. Yes. First of all, before we go to questions related to the national team, national team project, naturalization, all that. Ah, I made a statement two weeks ago saying that you know this is now a crisis. big names like this, Kedah, Perak, Pahang or whatever they call now, the club equivalent, right. For them to withdraw from the

17:47 local league, this is not a small club. A club with tradition, history, and pedigree. And if they are going and we know other clubs, even though they say they want to play in the coming season, there are financial problems. Some haven't paid staff, haven't paid salaries. I know many people involved. Is there a way out of this? Wow. That's a tough question. It takes maybe 15 hours to discuss and dissect because it's a very complex problem. So many different aspects to it. But let me start by just saying that two days ago me and my co-host. So

18:33 me and my co-host, we have a show on Astro Colbo Light to Life. A both of us went to Indonesia to cover Persip Bandung's last final game. Boyan Hod. Boyan Hodak. Correct. He won the title and he also suffered. And we, the people, left for Indonesia with rather negative emotions because I'm a Perak supporter. My co-host Faiz is from Gurun. He's a Kedah boy. And both our teams are closed. Right. So we are trying to go and experience football culture while at the same time dealing with the fact that our own teams have shut shop. But having been there experience what we experience which we all documented and

19:18 and I I just my initial and general conclusion is that Malaysia still does not have a football culture. It's not strong enough. It really isn't strong enough. I think we can talk about the club needing to manage spending. Need to follow a budget. No need to overspend because that's the reality of Malaysian football, right? If a club has a budget of 80 million, they spend 90 million on salaries alone. Not taking into account operational cost, not taking into account travel and all the other stuff. There is a culture of overpaying, overcompensating in Malaysian football. Everything is the beginning of the season, what is our target? Oh one cup, two cups one. there is nothing about sustainability tun ke you know those things we rarely hear with the exception of clubs like JDT of course Selangor and all that but

20:05 putting all of that aside the most basic thing is the clubs in Malaysia don't even make an effort to create some sort of sense of belonging because how long more how long will we try to guilt trip supporters to support the local team we will try to anger a guilt trip them or be sarcastic about them. Oh, I watch the EPL but I don't want to support the local team. How long more are we going to do all these things to convince people to watch local football instead of genuinely building a sense of connection with him orang that makes them want to support? Buuse I realize that in places like Bandung in Indonesia, they don't support Persid Bandung because they want Liga Satu to be prosperous. They don't, they don't support Persid Bandung to make

20:51 Indonesian football prosperous. Some of them couldn't even care less about the National Team or care less about the health of Liga 1. They support Persip Bandung because Persid Bandung is a part of their identity is within their blood as they say it over there. I can't think of a culture like that here at all. All throughout my upbringing, we were always just told, "Oh, so we can join the club so that the league is strong." If the league is strong, then the national team will be strong. Yeah, but as a fan it is not my duty to think of the league or to think of maybe I should just start by asking what does this team mean to me and I think that is at the very basic core that teams need to start to rethink. forget about the finance all comes after that.

21:38 But first and foremost, how do you build a sense of connection to the point that if a team closes the shop, pants stick to the streets. Hmm. Pans protest, start fundraising, going crazy. How do we create that culture? Because without culture it is very difficult for that culture to ever exist? You know, I mean I grew up in the 80s and 90s and I mean that culture probably existed in those days . I am a Kedah supporter. That was definitely that sense of belonging. Er is not just the final victim but throughout. A not sure whether at that time. I mean you know this

22:25 is not a scientific statement, it's anecdotal. The reason may be that the selection of live EPL matches entertainment is less. There are also fewer choices for other forms of entertainment . right. Other sports don't get much coverage either. So that's all it is. Ah, that might help a little bit but I you know away games Kedah Away Games in Merdeka Stadium against Kale I went not were tens of thousands but there was definitely a sense of KL fans you know. KL fans there are the red and red and white jerseys. H yes and I don't know if

23:10 it's win over the year over the years already less likely obviously match fixing scandal in the mid90s diluted a little bit i think turning point he came through the af 2010 for me personally i feel that was a very important turning point in Malaysian football i think that especially with it happened in the social media boom era was happening in Malaysia and it sort of turn a lot of younger generations towards Malaysian football but mainly towards the national team. Hmm. The league I think there is still an element of distrust over the years. But besides even the distrust I mean when I go and have conversations with Malaysian football fans and perhaps even ask them questions like oh why do you support

23:55 this team? Why do you support the team? A lot of the answers are you know related to the fact that oh I come from Kedah so I support Kedah. I come from Perak. I support Perak. But I think the clubs don't give them a reason or the clubs don't give them an environment to experience the culture at a deeper level. Like I once asked a Persija Jakarta supporter, part of JMIA, a JMIA supporter group. I asked him why do you support Persija? He has the answer yes, in fact, Jakarta is a place where a melting pot of people from all parts of Indonesia come looking for opportunities for survival. And when coming to Jakarta melting of cultures a lot of us leave home, leave comfort zone, leave

24:41 culture, leave family to come here. Essentially we in Jakarta are homeless but Persija Jakarta is offering a home for the homeless. You know like that sort of connection can only be that thing, you can't force anyone to have that connection. It's organically built, right? So I think and that only happens because those clubs those fan clubs are very active at the grassroots. They're constantly involved doing things and and I suppose we don't have that culture here as of now at least perhaps it existed in the mid 90s or prior to that. I feel like just to give a contrarian point of view. Could it be that what KJ mentioned and what I mentioned earlier

25:28 is more related to the socio-economic situation and the entertainment experience, the entertainment options available in a place at a time and not really wrong or the club's ability to attract interest? Hmm. Because the examples given of Bandung and Jakarta and the story that the case itself told earlier have a background with the living conditions there. He's like me, growing up I remember when Selangor was still playing at Stadium Merdeka I used to go with my dad then I went to Stadium Shah Alam . So I experienced that. But if I didn't have a son, but if I did have a son, to be honest, I don't think I would bring him. Maybe it's because of my shortcomings or I no longer consider it

26:15 an important moment in a father-son relationship because there are other options. I have to take it somewhere else and so on. So, but when I was growing up, that was probably the way my father showed love to me, for example, spending time father and son, right? So, it's more about that as opposed to because I don't even remember the Selangor club doing anything for me. There is a feeling of dependence. Hmm. What do you want to continue with this thought? Hmm. Okay. Let's take the example of two clubs that are still successful in Malaysia to attract support. of course JDT with Selangor yes I think there are other teams that might get pretty good support but

27:00 this is what can be said far ahead but even they you know the sketch right even they there is a time that TMJ itself feels like you know after all they've done to engage the community putting the identity of the southern tigers of Johor that's the kind of community engagement that you you Sometimes I feel disappointed too when I go to the Sultan Ibrahim Stadium you know because we're not seeing that passion from the crowd. Selangor is the same, there are times when you go out and times when you don't . So when there's a team that's really trying to reignite, trying to revive a sense of community, a sense of belonging, you know, it's seasonal. But we remember that it was not the beginning of the season, the early parts of this

27:47 season, Selangor attendances were absolutely insane. Every week they were selling out tickets. And that was at the peak of there being a sort of like a siege mentality in Selangor at that time because there was a crisis with them asking for charity shield, competition delete, MFL not for them to cut points. C the whole case of Faizal. It's amazing. There was an extraordinary circumstance outside the field. that sort of brought them together and all of a sudden there is a siege mentality and the attendances just keep so when there is a sense of belonging however temporary it is he is able to attract a group of people to be one similar to JDT I I agree with you I think a TMJ

28:34 has a very valid point actually because the team has been in the last 11 years the heights that they have scale makes no sense. Incredible, right? And by logic the higher you climb the more you should be able to attract right. But also because JDT has a very fast trajectory, organic growth at the grass roots is not as fast as that. But it's working, it's going up. Because we are aware that this year their attendances are still the highest, especially at the ACL tournament. They were the highest of most of the Asian teams that competed in East Asia for example numbers wise, right? So while he may not be at the level that TMJ or we as Malaysian football fans might want, but is it working, is it getting better for them? I definitely 100% think it is

29:20 because there is some sort of grassroots activity there. They are very active going to school, very active. Boys of Straights. I even know some acquaintances in the industry who before this in school days or right after school they all went to become members of boys of Straight Chanting training. So it builds that sort of grassroots activity, right? So I think we need more of that here. Without that, it is difficult to build a culture. Okay, let's take a break for a while and we'll be back later. Welcome back to episode 156 of Keluar Sekejap with KJ and Kish, which is our first segment where we chat about football. Maybe I want to

30:07 continue what we discussed before the break, about culture. Because I think that's what we emphasize. The argument is that if the club is involved in management or has activities at the grassroots level, it will allow the spirit of support to be higher. I want to move on to perhaps the next topic, which is the culture of supporting football itself as a whole. Er, for me to see from one side it's a type of subculture that we have to create so that things look cool, so that things seem like things that people want to get involved with. As a long-time football observer, what was the specific moment or time when the subculture was of

30:54 interest to young people, to people of all generations, what can be seen as an example of when the subculture peaked, other than the examples given earlier? Oh, this subculture is something that I really really love in football. I think um in Malaysia we have some very fascinating subcultures. Ultras Malaya itself is a very incredible subculture that is adored by the public. I've had friends, you know, journalists from so many parts of the world who will reach out to know more about Ultras Malaya to want to come and experience Ultras Malaya in person. It is a very unusual supporters movement. At the club level of

31:39 course you've got the Boys of Straight. One of my favorite football watching moments/xerience ever was in 2016 or 2017 if sure when JDT went to Osaka to play the ACL qualification. At that time, they had not yet reached the ACL group stage of ACL qualification. This is the furthest they have been at that stage against Osaka's picture, which at that time had the legendary Yasuito Endo from the picture, right, from Japan. And at that stadium that is as far as JDT have ever gone in the history of their journey in the ACL. And the amount of boys of streets members that I met in Osaka, you know some of them who came and slept in hotels because they didn't have enough money. Mm. And then at the

32:25 stadium it was temperature 2 deg celus but there was a period where the pictures of Saka ultras were quiet the Johor ultras just started singing and it was a moment that really made my mouth water. It was one of the most magical experiences just in that moment. JT losing 3IL by the way is currently losing 3 but the voices of support were incredible right so I think space and opportunity for the subculture to exist. Of course, the responsibility to ensure that the subculture is active is ours, right? For those of us who are interested in local football, for individuals who have connections with the club. But at the same time, I think we cannot force an individual to have that

33:10 sense of belonging. You cannot tell him, "Oh, you must have some connection with Perak because you are from Ipoh. You will not have any feelings for Perak." If that feeling is cultivated, whether it's by the club, whether it's by the state, whether it's by the community, if that feeling is cultivated and built, then that person will have that sense of belonging which can be tapped into to build that subculture. I want to move on to another factor. We have to stand on real earth. Whether it's a sense of belonging, there is a subculture. But if you don't have money, you can't go basically. And this thing is chicken and situation. I used to manage my team's club in the league for two seasons. Er I always

33:55 say theing you know how do you become a millionaire? You start off as a billionaire and you buy a football team then you end up as a millionaire. It means you lose money. I cut my losses. It's the one who criticizes everything, you know, no matter how much. But I've seen where it's going to go those days. We manage a team in the Premier League. We got promoted to Super League. Budet was three plus a year yes. 3 million, 3 4 million a year. I think the minimum now is 10. I understand the average is 20. Yes. Where are you going to find 20 million? And of course, let's not mention big teams. They are in a different category, right? Yes. He

34:40 already has this magic cycle of fans of commercial viability, monetization, sponsors, government sports all. But we usually take teams when the state government PKNS or say Kedah PKNK or Perak SDC Perak State Government has not given the team two million dollars, whatever it is, the sponsor is no longer there because the sponsor said no one goes to watch the stadium no one goes to watch a football game near the stadium you know where do you get the money from hmm that's that's a serious problem yes this is a topic that is again very serious

35:27 because it will involve us having to have a look at ourselves in the mirror our status as a league. Unfortunately, football now lives in a capitalist world, right? So the richer bigger clubs continue to get more powerful whereas the smaller clubs continue to die. And this is not a phenomenon exclusive to Malaysia. It's a global problem. It's a global I mean clubs there are so many small clubs in England that are genuinely dying that are fully reliant on community support at this point. But some of them are even with community support struggling to survive. Smaller clubs in England. But it is not on par with Kedah, Perak, Pahang. You, that's why we have a crisis right now, you giant. Yes. So for for but the platform is the same right. So generally it is a very difficult

36:14 environment for a club to try to sustain, to try to run because the cost is very very high. Why is the cost so high? Because forget about the travel what all. Let's be real, vast majority of Malaysian teams spend a lot of their money on wages, on player signings, on the kind of because the wage structure in Malaysia has skyrocketed over the last few years. Foreign players continue to be super duper expensive. Agents continue to, you know, makeion, make commissions and have a bit of a rain over clubs over here. The number of imported players has also been increased. Correct. How small's argument is always that if you want to attract sponsorship in Malaysia, you have to be competitive. If you want to be competitive, you first have to spend. But if you

37:01 spend this, there is no guarantee that you will be competitive and there is no guarantee that you will win something. You can spend 20 million and still finish 14 and then you cannot drive any commercial. You cannot rely on any more money. So it's an even there it's a game of chicken and egg. How do smaller clubs abroad do it? For example, they look for alternative solutions. Example, instead of prior to this, you maybe got, you know, played around by agents charging high fees and high commissions and and you know, lying to clubs about player abilities and injury history and blah blah blah blah. Now with the advent of data why scout, you've got so many more platforms to bypass those things. And but the funny thing is in Malaysia, a lot of the bigger clubs that are active use this thing. Whereas the clubs that are struggling financially still

37:48 don't use these methods to get players for it's a very very tricky situation but the start the start has got to be clubs need to be realistic with unnecessary targets I just want to quickly shout out eh Negeri Sembilan for example last year I feel from the beginning the messaging that people don't want to challenge anything, don't want anything, don't want to win any championships or anything. The message from the beginning was that we are trying to build things from the ground up. We start slowly. not easy but they try and the players they got last season were not the most highly rated foreign players or local players but they were there were signs of a team brewing there they are trying to continue that

38:34 season in I think we need more of that PJ City for example of course off the pitch there is a cultural problem where people struggle to establish a fan base but on the pitch they went a season without any import players and still can remain somewhat competitive in Malaysia. Now fans need to start realizing that every successful season doesn't equate to just trophies. It can come in a variety of different ways and that conversation needs to happen between clubs and fans. Which is why this question is difficult to answer because there are multifaceted factors that influence all these things. I suppose it is multifaceted, but one of the dimensions is sustainability, the financial sustainability that has led to

39:20 these two giant clubs not being given licenses to compete in the MFL. But as far as Kish is concerned, the responsibility falls on the MFL as the regulatory body, if we can call it that, other than just the league, to prevent this from happening. Because we can say yes, it's the club's responsibility and so on. But of course there is also responsibility on the part of the MFL and is it possible that with the Perak and Kedah cases, if we want a little controversy, it will also prove a bit of a failure on the part of the MFL and FAM themselves. Yes. I think from my perspective, I would agree with that. I think MFL has a responsibility that may not be small. I think as the league manager, one of the MFL's main responsibilities is to ensure that the teams competing

40:06 are in a healthy condition. Both on and off the pitch. Personally, I am a proponent of a salary cap. not only to ensure the team remains healthy but also to ensure that football's original value as the world's biggest unscripted drama can be maintained. It has soccer as the most global sport because it's the world's biggest unscripted drama. But when it starts to become a bit more predictable, a bit more predictable, then it loses its value a bit by a bit, right? And this is a problem that you know UEFA president himself came out and said I think it was last year said that even the big clubs

40:51 in Europe themselves are considering salary caps because even though they are dominant but they are aware that their dominance may have an effect on the competitive level of the pit. So, but going back to the original question, for me, the argument is always, oh why don't clubs like to spend? It is not the MFL's responsibility to ensure that clubs spend. MFL's responsibility is to set the platform and then it's up to the clubs to plan their finances, which I agree. But if you look at the track record of football clubs in Malaysia for the last 15 years, it's clear that every year they have n't been managed well. At some point you can't just pass your hope to them

41:37 and expect them to run it. At some point there needs to be some form of intervention right to make sure how it's run to make sure how the budget is spent to make sure that there should be a spending limit to these things. If we don't do that then every season the same problem will happen because yes, we want to be in good shape and hope that the club is managed well, but that doesn't always happen in Malaysia. If there is a salary cap, it is as an effort to try to level the playing field because it can be said that right now the playing field is quite uneven because there are gregation clubs that have greater resources . Yes. But his counter argument is that this will hinder or

42:26 hinder these clubs because these clubs are not very competitive here. Hmm. He has a vision. So, when the eagle was flying high, I suddenly wanted to drag the eagle down. So that's the other thing because as you know TMJ now VC is no longer very successful here although you know we would like to continue JDT would like to continue to win here but it's more the elusive ACL. Hmm. So that's also a counter-argument. So coming to my question in conjunction with this ASEAN conference. Hmm. Does K have an opinion if there is a regional Super League?

43:14 It's the Asian Super League. Yes. It's a tricky one. You know, Jur probably possibly. I don't know what the fans would think about it though. And what does it cost? And at what cost to local football. Hmm. at what cost to local football, at what cost to creating a group of elite ASEAN super clubs and sort of shutting off the door to a lot of the other smaller clubs to wanna walk into that circle. It's the same reason why the European Super League was protested so heavily by the fans, right? But I understand why that idea could put work because you've got a group of clubs in Southeast Asia that may be more far environment that they are currently part of the right environment that

44:00 he has outgrown that environment is the same thing right if in the Indonesian league you know it becomes predictable like you said so he will have an adverse effect on the scene but when the eagle has flown and the rest start is It's a different equation lah. Yeah. I suppose it's definitely something that can be considered where it's it's I have n't made up my mind on it yet. I've thought about it. I've I like the initial idea of ​​it buuse I mean if we are given the opportunity to watch Persid versus JDT or Persija versus Kong Hanoi or Buriram versus on a frequent basis. It's quite fun, right? It's quite fun. Football is more than just these big elite clubs. It's a lot wider than that. A small team is

44:47 like aa if in Thailand you know small smaller teams like Nong Bua Picaya who are in the second division can have big aspirations. Dewa United in the Indonesian league now finishing second in the league. They can have big aspirations to. If in Malaysia, you know, smaller teams like Kuching City for example this season this season was really really impressive can have big ambitions. So yeah, it's I I don't know which side of the debate I'm on but I'm open to it at this point. I think as a football fan I'm not fully opposed to it but I'm also not fully certain of it. Perhaps borrowing from the debate at the European level, how to ensure that if you want to do this, there must be a relegation and promotion mechanism. Hmm. If you

45:34 've locked down one elite group forever, something feels off. And just to mention I agree with you. I think the salary cap, even though I'm a fan of the salary cap, but I also think it's complex because one league can't do it. It has to be a region wide effort not a world effort a global effort or else if you impose a salary cap here perhaps you create a healthy league but JDT can never then go on and compete with your al-Hilals, Al-Nasars and your big teams right. It's a strike. Do you want to prioritize the local league again? That depends on the fans. Because for example if we ask the fans, I have a close friend of mine who is part of the supporters movement near

46:19 VFB Stuttgart. His view is different. His view is that he doesn't care if Stuttgart plays in Europe. He doesn't care if Stuttgart plays in the Bundesliga or division 2. His main priority view is that pricing tickets must be stamped. Mm. Spending club has to be sustainable. The main priority is the fans. Even if you are relegated, next year I will be there too. That's in today's world. This is a rare species. But it's in Europe. Maybe in this region it's a bit rare but in a lot of subcultures in Europe it's a very dominant narrative again. Especially in Germany I suppose. Yes. To make myself feel better when we lost to Spurs in the Europa League, I posted it on Instagram. you know, we always support you . The sentences are more or less the same. But

47:06 anyway, back to local football. Okay, we've talked a little bit about the league. Let's focus on the national team . What is Kish's view about the national team project? There are those who believe that you know we've tried everything else, nothing works. If the magic touch that can be made at the club level can be repeated at the national team level even using the method of naturalized players, heritage players, but if it is taken as a jump start for the national team project and in the long term of course we hope for more

47:53 natives then why not? Yes, I agree. Er, I agree with that. I know the debate about naturalized players is a very heated debate. And I respect anyone who may disagree for whatever reason. I think it's a very fair opinion to have. I personally am for it. Just because I feel like we live in a world right now where identities are something that is very fluid, right? You know, a person could be born in Malaysia but could have spent their entire life living in a separate country. And who are we to say? Whether they are Malaysian or whether they are British or it's it's a very fluid thing. And this concept of naturalization

48:40 is not something new or something that only Malaysia uses. It's a global thing. So from a football point of view if we if we don't want to be left behind of course we have to prioritize you know youth development at the same time but it's something we should engage in for a short term solution basis to compete at a higher level. I like what for example if we are in the ASEAN region if what Indonesia is doing is a very aggressive naturalization program in the senior team but at the same time the effort they are doing at the grassroots level is also very aggressive at this point. The under 20 team just qualified for the under 20 World Cup for the first time with a composition of

49:26 players who were mostly born, raised and built a football identity in the local system. While the senior team has a completely different structure. That's the kind of setup that I would personally like for Malaysia. I would like to see us being far more aggressive at the grassroots level. Unfortunately due to the health of our local football. Right now we almost exclusively depend on JDT Academy. A bit of NFDP and also Selangor Akademy also during the NFDP. No. But that is the reality right at this moment, but I am for it and the first match of the day I was acting I really enjoyed it. I liked our team's performance. I thought there was a renewed sense of

50:13 energy to it. My friend Faiz and I had the opportunity to interview Peter Kamovski in a one hour conversation on our show. I also like Peter a lot. I think he has the right sort of ideas, selling the right sort of emotions as well. What is he? What makes Kish feel attracted to him? Honesty. Okay. I think very quickly he came out in a press conference and said our league was bad. Hmm. Whether we like it or not, we have to. And it's not an easy thing, right? Sometimes when you become the head coach of a new country, you might think to yourself, okay, maybe I should make a statement that's a little popular at first. Please the crowd a little, pull. No, his instant first press conference, he already said and and he came with the numbers. He came with the data. He said in our league, this is

50:59 the amount of running that the players do. and compare this to the amount of running that the players in Vietnam do, the players in the Thai league do, which is the general sense of intensity is much higher right. Hmm. So he didn't just come with plain opinions. He claims he came with data. In the interview with Faiz and me, he asked us because we were previewing the upcoming game against Vietnam. He himself asked us, "When was the last time we defeated Vietnam?" Hmm. When was the last time we beat Vietnam and we were thinking about it, thinking about it, thinking about it, thinking about it. I'm like, yeah, it's been it's been quite a while actually. It's like 2014. So, it's a 10 year gap that we have n't beaten. Viet. So, he is very data oriented. And I quite like that brutal raw honesty. Madam, I think if

51:46 our football wants to go anywhere, we need that sort of raw honesty from the key leaders. I, you know, back to the development, so you know, like I mentioned earlier, the NFDP and all that, now there is news that says that they want to hand it over to the FAM, when the NFDP was first started, then I became a minister, but neither here nor there, so it turned into something different, but it was funded by the KBS government and operated by a unit under the National Sports Council . It was always my plan to hand over

52:35 to states to FM. We were just about to, as I said, jump start the development because I saw at that time that there was nothing. I mean you can tell me about your Piala president, your Piala Belia teams please. I mean you know that there was nothing you know. So this was a constant competition that was held every week. High intensity, regular training and funded by the government. And my concern is when I want to hand it over to FAM and also hand it over to the state, are they ready to accept it? And of course the program has suffered over the years after I was gone. I'm not saying the program was successful because I was there. But it's also

53:22 about what the minister feels is important to him. Er because for me it's important. So I will give you sufficient allocation. H er but I'm worried that when he goes back to FAM with all due respect to FAM and the states you know he will die like that. Yes. I mean, I don't want to say anything about anyone in FAM or anything. But the point is that we, the clubs and the leaders of many of our clubs, struggle to sustain the senior team. Yes. In order to ensure that there is a structure for the president's cup, the youth cup where the players are paid the minimum salary on time, we struggle. Not to mention the playing identity,

54:08 playing curriculum, you know, coaching education, all this academy shoots that he has to take care of to do it on a small scale with the club right now, most people are just doing it at a rate to meet the requirements for club licensing, it's not a plan that is genuinely to grow because, how do I put it this way, would I as a spectator expect that my club would prioritize youth development if my club leader at the beginning of the season said our target was to win a cup. Hmm. Even at that time I already knew that my club was led by a leader whose target was short term right there is no because there is no mention of anything about long term growth how are we gna integrate pathway untuk

54:55 so even at that time that would be my general so if it is the current health of the teams and the bad manager then I would have similar concerns about whether NFDP can genuinely be Yes, taken care of. Yes, that's my thoughts at least. Any final thoughts? It's fun to discuss this. Final thoughts from me but thank you for being here. Bakis, I think maybe this is a question from me, you know, back to this league, I'm going to ask a slightly heated question. Not meant to be political but political

55:40 in a way. Does Kiss think that if MB or the palace likes and is interested in football then it can be successful. Because Malaysia is like that. We are quite feudal. Hmm. If the palace and whoever becomes the MB or chief minister is not really interested in football, they will die. And that is Malaysian that's Malaysia for you. Hmm. Hmm. There are pros and of course you know TMJ has done miracles with JDT. That's the great success story. But the cautionary tale is that when the MB is no longer interested, there is no money,

56:26 even the state's leaders are not interested in football, then that's what you have. I think that will always be the struggle. I think TMJ himself used to talk about this thing which is for all the incredible efforts that he has put into the club. I think maybe his dream one day when he is ready to leave JDT is that JDT can we don't know if that will ever come but let's say hypothetically 20 30 years from now he feels that okay my time is up is the club going to be in a situation where he can leave the club and the club can just continue on the trajectory that he built I think personally I think that would be his aspirations but it's not as easy because TMJ's own single mindedness, his

57:13 own ideas, his own persistence is the one driving the club at this point. And that has sort of been the culture in Malaysian football. The culture has never been for us to build a sustainable team to generate, to build succession planning. For example, are you talking about football or politics? I'm talking about football. I'm talking about football. That's ridiculous because what you said is relevant to many things other than football in Malaysia. Yes. It's funny because in my field of work, I cover I have to cover European football and I have to cover Malaysian football. But how I cover European football, it's crazy because every time I have to change my head space. M when I think or I try to write about when I think or try to write about United, Real Madrid what, you have to think and think on of succession planning, think of like when Edward

58:00 Woodwood left, Sir Jim Redcliff entered with a new director of football. And Ashford was later fired. What is Omar Berada doing? What is Jason doing behind the scenes? That's all. Then when I wanted to cover Malaysian football, I had to immediately change because this year there was a change in the political landscape so there was no support from the Menteri Besar. So there's no budget like instantly it's different. That's it. That's unfortunately there. Yes. Yes. That's why I have to ask that question. Yeah, it is what it is. Ideally we would like for it to change but I suppose given how interconnected football is the most popular spot in this country. Football is the spot of the masses. It 's a global language and as such it will always be connected to politics wherever we go I suppose. So

58:47 ideally we would like for it not to be that but for it not to be that it's not just a football problem. Yes, a Malaysian thing. It's a Malaysian problem. Thank you for the great conversation. We hope to have you back and to better days for United for and for Malaysia. Malaysia. Thank you. Thank you very much. Welcome back to episode 156KS. I enjoyed the discussion earlier, okay? Yes. Okay. Okay. It's a little different from time to time if we can invite someone who can talk about football or something else, I think it's a nice change

59:33 for community issues. Community things. Yes. The changes we are most looking forward to are not just political talk, but there is a political dimension as well. Oh yes. There is. Since politics is our staple food at KS, this episode would definitely not be complete without a little discussion regarding politics. There are probably two topics we want to discuss for this last segment. One is the PKR election results. Another ASEAN or ASEAN summit is taking place in the capital city of Kuala Lumpur. As we know, the deputy president doesn't really want to talk about other positions. The positions of deputy president and

1:00:19 vice presidents. My sister Puan Nurul Izah has already won, defeating Datuk Seri Rafizi Ramlie. Aa Izah received 9,000 803 votes while aa Datuk Seri Rafizi received 386 votes for the position of Deputy President. Meanwhile, for the vice president, unfortunately, our friend Nik Nazmi was eliminated from the four deputy vice president positions won by Menteri Besar Datuk Seri Amiruddin Sha'ri, won by Sungai Buloh MP and Deputy Minister of Entrepreneurship Datuk Ramanan, and thirdly, Yang Amat Berhormat Datuk

1:01:06 Seri Aminuddin Harun, Menteri Besar of Negeri Sembilan, and Yang Berhormat Chan Ling Kang, Minister of Science, Technology and Innovation. I think there are many things we can discuss regarding what has already happened. Maybe Sharil wants to give his opinion first, then I can give a little bit of my opinion. Yes. Some views of KJ. First, I think there are overly simplistic analyses that say that so-and-so won because he was more grassroots-friendly compared to the loser who was not grassroots-friendly. I see that sometimes that is a bit of a lazy argument. When someone is seen as intellectual or has good performance

1:01:53 in terms of creating ideas and so on. The quick assumption is that this guy must not be friendly to the underworld. It's as if the individual can't have both. There are many people who have personalities in terms of being more intellectual and so on. There's a nice touch. And there are many who lack intellectual prowess and who lack even a good touch. But usually in this overly simplistic analysis we consider it black and white. Er so I dismiss that as an assumption because I don't see any evidence yet. For example, Nik Nazmi in Setiawangsa doesn't take care of the area. I don't know. We don't sit there and we are not PKR members there. But I think that's too simplistic. That's one. The second, more likely, is that

1:02:39 this will be seen, I think, as a very important moment in the history of justice or PKR where what happens after this will determine whether this is a generational renewal. This will either give certain figures a chance to shine or this will be the moment where many PKR supporters themselves will start to really lose faith in the party if the election results and what happens after them are seen as PKR no longer embodying the spirit of reform. And why are we just mentioning it because when Sister Nurul Izah, who

1:03:25 we know and who we say has a personality and so on, when she wins, like it or not, there is this perception and now she herself and her own party have to refute that perception. So the impression is already there and it's up to her to prove it to the masses. Not to people who may have supported him but to those who are cynical about showing that he really has the qualities that can match Rafizi or even rival and be better in certain sectors or dimensions. Otherwise, I think this impression will stick and when this impression sticks, it could have major implications that shouldn't be overlooked. Yes. I think the analysis is a

1:04:12 good one and I want to focus my views on what both Rafizi and Nurizah need to do next. I don't want to talk too much about what has already happened. We all know the result. What happened has happened now what should they do? Because I am a peer, Izah is 5 years younger than me, Rafizi is a year younger than me, but more or less the same generation, we all come from the same generation, and it is

1:04:57 quite difficult for me personally to see people I know fighting each other, but the custom of competitions is that there is only one winner. That's that's something that has to be accepted. So what happens now? Because for me, of course, both have a place and a role for the future of our country. It's not not not not, it's the future of our country. for the current time. I'm quite careful when I use the word future because I feel it's time for people like Rafizi, like Nurulizah, now they're already in their 40s. How much longer do you have to wait? Ah but what should they do now? Hmm, to

1:05:44 explain how Sharil said he won with a large majority. And now is the time for him to prove that the trust and mandate given by the majority of the Justice Party delegates was not in vain. He has to prove that all perceptions that link this victory to family issues, the issue of nepotism can be erased and it can only be erased through performance. If he can show good performance, especially in the most important KPI, which is GE 16, I

1:06:32 don't think many people can argue with him anymore. So now of course is the time for her to prove that she deserves the role as deputy president and perform the task well. for Datuk Seri Rafizi because I read that he said he intended to resign from his ministerial position because he said his principle is that members of the cabinet must come from senior leaders who hold high positions in the parties that form the current government. And since he is no longer the deputy president, then morally, in principle

1:07:19 , he must resign from his position as a member of the cabinet. A and he gave an example of how UMNO used to have problems because those who were in the cabinet during the Tan Sri Mahyuddin government and the Ismail Sabri government were among those ministers who did not have positions. You know what, Putrajaya versus PWTC has a narrative, it's me, I don't have any position in the UMNO party but I was appointed as a member of the cabinet and Rafizi said this has caused tension and it's true there is tension but I have a slightly different view from Rafizi. I don't think he needs to resign because appointments to the cabinet

1:08:06 are the prerogative or power of the Prime Minister and the Prime Minister must be given the freedom to appoint whoever he feels is qualified to be a minister. Sometimes the appointment must be based on political considerations. Whoever is the most right-wing in the parties that form the federal government has to take the president, deputy president, but sometimes they also have to take people who have individual ability. And I don't think there is any reason for Rafizi to resign even though he is no longer deputy president, but he is someone who has the ability to be a minister and I hope he remains a minister. The same goes for Nik Nazmi even though he no longer has a position. Leave it to the PM. Submit

1:08:52 to the PM. The PM will decide. But for me now maybe Datuk Seri Anwar has to see Nik Nazmi and Datuk Seri Rafizi not as vice president and deputy president of PKR Keadilan but as two young leaders. A relatively young leader who has the ability as an individual who can be a member of the cabinet and not just look at their seniority in justice. So I hope Rafizi won't resign and Nazmi, Nik Nazmi won't resign either. And the third is because I have also read comments from those who are on Team Hero, the team that supports Datuk Seri Rafizi. They said okay if you don't want

1:09:40 Rafizi then good luck all the best for GE16. You are on your own. we don't need to help, we don't need to help. I think I mean that is more or less announcing that you are sabotaging your own party. Oh and I think yes of course he was in the heat at the moment, he was feeling angry and said all the best, good luck, we won't lift a finger. But I don't think that should be the case. I think Rafizi should be the bigger man even though he went through something that we don't hope on anybody especially friends. But he should say that you know yes I'm still here. I will not abandon justice and I will do my best to help PMX Anwar and Izah for justice in the next election. So allow me to perhaps give a

1:10:27 slightly different view from KJ on this matter. In my opinion, although I understand what KJ is saying, I think for Rafizi, as someone who was so public during the campaign that he would resign if I lost, it might be good for him to box those words. And it doesn't mean that if he resigns from the cabinet, he disappears, he becomes sullen or he is no longer functional. He can still play a role as one of the campaigners who, from one perspective, has no equal in PKR. A and he can still create a movement or wave that will be seen contributing

1:11:14 to the party's struggle and not seen running away. So I think it's important for him to think about that option because we want to talk about politics as well, which is the second point KJ can say, yes, it's true that they are individuals who have caliber, credibility, the ability to contribute and the Malaysian cabinet needs them, the PM needs them and so on. Okay, fine. Er, but in terms of politics, in terms of political weight, it is not the same as, for example, Senator Tengku Zafrul or Senator Amir Hamzah who did not enter on a political office ticket. When there was a political position in a party that was considered quite right-wing, such as the next prime minister and so on, suddenly it was gone after an election that was quite heated and quite

1:12:01 intense, not in terms of the results but in terms of the campaign. credibility and the mood in the room. Maybe KJ is more discerning sitting in the cabinet, maybe he will be impressed and when that thing is gone, it will be difficult for him to catch it back in the same term or the same term. It's different if he leaves and comes back in tomorrow in a different capacity or with a different theme. So I think

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