EP151 | Reformasi v Reforbasi, Team AI v RR, Parti Derita ke Kuasa, Madani: Pengumuman & Pelaksanaan

0:00 Not easy. I admit it's not easy, because at the end of the day, this power is a glitter that can easily captivate and people will say whatever now, right? Assalamualaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh. I am KJ. Before you listen and watch the latest episode of Keluar Sekejap with a great guest, I would like to once again ask those who are in the UK, whether in Manchester or London or anywhere in England and the United Kingdom. KS will be going to the UK, UK tour. We will be doing a show in Manchester on the 25th of April and in London on the 26th of April.

0:46 There are a few more tickets that haven't been sold and you can buy those tickets here. See you in the UK. Assalamualaikum and Syawal greetings. Welcome to episode 151 of Keluar Sekejap. We have already recorded and uploaded one episode before this regarding geopolitical issues, the issue of tariffs imposed by the United States and have already discussed several hot local issues.

1:32 Today we have a great guest and a guest who has previously appeared on the Keluar Sekejap sofa. A minister, a writer, an intellectual and I dare say, a great future leader for our country, Shahril. Yes, he is a friend of the pod, as they say. None other than The Honourable Mr. Nik Nazmi Nik Ahmad, Minister of Natural Resources and Sustainability, and also a Liverpool fan. Yes. How are you this morning, Liverpool? Okay. Positive. Positive, huh? Long term, long term. You are still Tuan because your friends are all Datuk, Datuk Seri. Still Tuan? Saudara. Saudara, okay.

2:19 Author of the book Saving the Planet: Climate and Environmental Lessons from Malaysia and Beyond. I enjoyed this book thoroughly. Well written. I am impressed because the Honourable Minister could write this book while serving in the ministry, a ministry. I cannot imagine finding the time to do anything when I was a member of the administration. Where did the Honourable Minister find the time to write this book? Because this book isn't a frivolous book, this book is quite serious. It has footnotes, an index, a bibliography. Meaning it's a proper, credible book. Thank you.

3:05 When I first appeared on Keluar Sekejap in early 2023, if I'm not mistaken, As I shared back then, entering or jumping into this portfolio, at that time, it was really like fumbling in the dark. And I had to read a lot, I had to talk extensively with experienced people, and also see for myself what was happening on the ground. So that was when I started jotting down notes, which later on, I felt could be turned into this book. And I also had a good team supporting me in that effort. If you haven't read or bought the book Saving the Planet: Climate and Environmental Lessons from Malaysia and Beyond

3:56 by The Honourable Minister Nik Nazmi Nik Ahmad, this is a plug for it. It's a very good book. If you want to know anything about the Malaysian government's position on the environment, on climate change, and the world of environmental policy, this is a primer, not just a primer, but a very, very interesting discussion. Congratulations once again on the launch of the book. If I may start, still regarding government issues and the Minister's portfolio issue. When we met the Honourable Minister 2 years ago, The Honourable Minister was a minister of a large ministry, a super ministry. Now the Honourable Minister is left with half of that ministry.

4:42 Half of that ministry, if I'm not mistaken, has gone to the Deputy Prime Minister, Dato' Sri Fadillah, which is named PETRA. That relates to the ministry or issues concerning electricity, water, and all utility resources. Previously utility resources, and the Honourable Minister is left with the environment. The environment and also policy issues concerning climate change. Are these developments and these changes something that disappoints the Honourable Minister? No minister likes to have their kingdom reduced. For me, indeed, during the time at NRECC, the old ministry name before it was split,

5:34 it allowed us to take a more holistic approach. Because energy, water, including flood mitigation, JPS, are also related to climate change. And the environment. But realistically, I also feel that now it has been split, NRES, my new ministry, allows me to focus more on issues, for example, environmental issues like plastics. Because when I helmed NRECC, plastics was also a big issue. But I couldn't focus because there were too many things. Secondly, issues involving forest conservation and also, for example, minerals; now rare earths are widely discussed.

6:23 For me, I mean, of course Previously, we could approach it within one ministry. Now it's split into two, but it allows for more depth. I can delve deeper into the issues within my portfolio. YB, this environmental issue, YB mentioned depth. But it's also an issue that cuts across various ministries, across various activities within a government. From YB's observation to date, are you getting cooperation from the rest of the cabinet? Are they as passionate as YB regarding this matter? They are passionate. For example, my friend from the Federal Territories, Datuk Seri Johari.

7:09 Because he handles plantations and commodities. So he also knows, because we can say the whole world is watching the palm oil sector. And the issue of sustainability, the issue of deforestation. So he is also very committed to ensuring our palm oil industry is sensitive about this matter. And we want to highlight to the world that we have best practices with MSPO and so on. So likewise, as I can say, if it's me with Tengku Zafrul. In terms of industrial policy, he also understands the importance of the sustainability element. If with Saudara Rafizi, we collaborate from the perspective of CCUS, for example.

7:58 Energy transition. Energy transition overall. So they know that we are heading towards the 2050 net-zero target. Towards more sustainable goals. Generally, I see no major problems. But of course, each ministry's focus is different. If I am more focused on conservation, more towards net-zero goals and so on, they have their own respective goals under their portfolios. Just briefly, KJ, I want to ask from a global perspective now, perhaps we'll return to Malaysia after this. There's a feeling that lately, this sustainability agenda has been moving down the priority list.

8:44 Perhaps this sustainability issue, when there are no major conflicts, when there's no major drama, when there isn't a somewhat peculiar individual in the White House, then it can become a globally discussed issue. But now it seems that's not the priority. Is that a fair assessment? There's some truth to it. As we can see, this is actually not the first time. When Donald Trump won his first presidential term, he also withdrew from the Paris Agreement. Which is the world's main climate agreement. This time, we see this withdrawal again, and we also see international banks, which were previously committed to net-zero, starting to withdraw, especially banks from the United States or those with significant holdings in America.

9:36 And that has an impact. So I cannot deny it because America isn't a small economy. It's one of the largest economies in the world. So for that reason, we have to acknowledge its impact. But at the same time, we also know that net-zero or the issue of climate change, or the larger issue of Earth's sustainability, transcends the political turmoil of any country. True, withdrawal, when America withdraws, it impacts us. But at the same time, firstly, America is a nation with a very strong federation system with powerful local governments at the city and state levels.

10:24 And many of them are still committed to this issue. Some states in America find it hard to get insurance now, because floods and fires have become major issues. That's one thing. Secondly, if we look now, there's increasingly more technology available. Previously, we always looked to America, but for EVs, we have Tesla, but we also have so many coming from China. We have high-speed rail technology available in Japan, Europe, and China. Actually, there's a lot, regarding China, I think perhaps KJ is also aware, when they hosted the 2008 Olympics, they had to shut down factories. Because their air was too polluted. But now with such high sales of EVs,

11:10 with the measures they've taken, and sometimes some industries even move to Malaysia. Because they can no longer operate in China. So that means we can learn from that and how we can enhance cooperation with other countries. I think it's undeniable that if we look at the curve of history or the arc of history is still bending towards sustainability, for sure. Because the issue of climate change and so on, now has an impact on daily life. As the Honourable Minister mentioned earlier, in terms of floods, in terms of the recent fires in California and so on. But I think the point mentioned by Shahril is a very important point.

11:59 This change is being slowed down, I feel, slowed down. Not just by the United States, but by other countries as well. I used to see that the Conference of Parties (COP), this annual conference that takes place, was usually dominated by those who wanted the sustainability agenda to be prioritized. But now I see, maybe in the last 5 years or so, the Honourable Minister has also attended COP for several years as a minister. That agenda has started to be, not taken over, but I think the big oil companies, even the oil producing countries, recently Azerbaijan, then before that, the UAE. They say, "Let's play the same game as those who are our competitors" in this matter.

12:49 And they are also participating in the agenda, setting the agenda. Now it's not so much about 'phase out', but maybe reduce a bit, transition, slow it down. Are you seeing that? Well, I understand the perspective KJ mentioned earlier. But, I mean, I think there are a few important points that we can make. For example, up until Dubai, COP28 in the UAE, there was never any mention of phasing out of or transitioning away from fossil fuels as a whole. If before that, perhaps coal was mentioned specifically. Meaning, petroleum wasn't mentioned, and that was achieved under the UAE's presidency.

13:36 So I feel, credit is where credit is due. Okay, we have Baku, perhaps some developments are quite slow, true. But this time in Brazil, which I think will provide many perspectives from countries not just developing countries, but those with significant biodiversity like Malaysia. For me, this climate issue, whether we like it or not, it has to involve all parties. Whether it's oil-producing countries, or non-oil-producing countries, they must be involved. But I agree that the matters of principle, we cannot forget, we cannot allow them to be robbed or hijacked.

14:23 That I agree with. That's-- that's the danger. But I also know, like, we cannot equate countries that have just started exploiting their oil in the last 30-40 years with countries that have been industrialized for 200 years. For example, Western countries. Because they have taken those resources not only in their own countries, they took them from our country too, and they profited first, not us. And they are the ones who achieved a high standard of living with that wealth. This is climate justice. Climate justice. Just transition, yes. Why don't we ask them to pay us compensation? Yes, that is indeed what is being asked, and even if successful, they will make promises and commitments, but what translates into action is very little.

15:12 That's their record. Like including the one in Baku, talking about 1 trillion and so on. Their commitment was only 300 million. Even then, 100 million was in direct grants, 200 million in other forms of aid, possibly loans. And indeed that became a source of anger because I saw the whole world at that time, where they said, Western countries have no problem waging wars using trillions of dollars. But when we have to face floods, we have to borrow money to build infrastructure and so on. So, that indeed becomes a dividing line between developed and developing countries at the international level. The promises are indeed A-grade, the implementation is a bit lacking. Correct. Okey, you should come back to that later.

16:00 But before we get into politics or any issues that are too heated, KJ already touched on the book written by the Honourable Minister himself. I've read it too and I agree, it's very accessible. And perhaps that's what I want to bring up. How do you see your role as a young minister, holding a portfolio that isn't exactly a hot portfolio, politically speaking. But a portfolio whose impact is incredibly significant for future generations. What methods do you use, besides things like this book, to ensure this issue resonates with the grassroots, is grounded? Yes, that, I think, is one of the major challenges in this portfolio. And if we look at global geopolitical developments too, I can say it's our failure to present a narrative about the issue of sustainability.

16:51 About the issue of saving this planet, perhaps we haven't been clear enough because for many people, including not just in Malaysia, we see election results even in developed countries, people feel, some people are given the impression, that the steps to save the planet, for the climate and so on, but they cause prices of goods to rise, they cause people's freedoms to be restricted. So it has affected things, and you know, when we want to talk about climate issues, it's rather... even though there are floods, there are heatwaves, but people feel it's still abstract. Wanting to talk about tigers, wanting to talk about trees. So they say, 'Yes, but what are we going to eat? Our salary is this much, we can't afford to buy this.'

17:37 That's their... but these things are interrelated. For example, the price of chicken. The price of chicken rises because, for example, sometimes its feed, corn, there are problems in Argentina or Europe. Maybe related to war, but there's also a connection to climate. So, but how do we make that case. So because of that, among the books that are really-- that I've read, and I feel he was more successful than me in writing, is, this is the other Sadiq, Sadiq Khan, Breathe. Who's the other Sadiq? I don't know. So, the book Breathe is about how he tackled the issue of air pollution in London as the Mayor of London. And the way he tells it is very easy, very simple.

18:26 Although even then he faced challenges, to the point his party was afraid of losing votes over the issue and so on. But for me, we have to find a way to make the case. Your book is good because we need to do storytelling, tell stories about this. Because the issue of sustainability and the environment is actually not foreign to our local culture. Bring back the old stories, the design patterns of village houses. Why are they built elevated and not on the ground? All of that is related to environmental issues. How we care for trees, how we used to get medicines from herbal sources and so on. So, the DNA is there. But we just need to revive that storytelling, especially among young people, small children.

19:17 I want to go back to the issue of the ministry, Honourable Minister, back to the whole-of-government approach, because this issue of the environment and climate change, as Shahril said, requires effort from all parties. Has the cabinet or the council of ministers ever considered the matter of ESG requirements for each ministry to report annually what they have done for the E, which is environment. Yes, I can give an example that has just started. For instance, the Ministry of MITI and also NRES. Actually, we (NRES) are just about to do it too. Which is sustainability reporting or ESG reporting. So like MITI, their argument is they always ask industry to do it. I discussed this with their Secretary-General.

20:09 So he said, he wants MITI to do it too, he feels it's important for MITI to show that leadership. So I, in turn, told my ministry, I said, 'Hey, if other ministries are doing it, surely NRES must do it too, right?' So I feel that also becomes a positive thing that we should do and it should be expanded further, and perhaps we can raise it at the SDG Council. NRES and MITI can be said to be ministries that are quite enlightened, have enlightenment on this issue. Because MITI often deals with industry and international reporting. NRES, this is indeed your core business. But other ministries that regulate large industries, which are the culprits of these carbon emissions.

20:55 like transportation, local council, and health ministry. I know there are several programs at the Ministry of Health, especially in hospitals, waste management and so on to reduce the carbon footprint. But I think, maybe at first not mandatory, because that will increase operational costs, but towards mandatory reporting for government agencies. Agreed, and under the National Climate Change Action Council chaired by the PM, we have agreed to form the National Decarbonisation Committee. Which I chair and will involve other ministries, as well as MBs, Chief Ministers, and Premiers overall.

21:41 So for that, perhaps one reason for this is to implement how we want to achieve net zero by 2050. So that is an important platform that we will use. Okay, one last point from me YB, for YB to also explain to the Keluar Sekejap audience, regarding the matter of... adaptation versus mitigation. Because I feel this is a relevant topic for us in Malaysia. Perhaps YB could have the chance to explain, what is the difference? And why does YB feel that now is the time for us to do more adaptation as well? Okay, yes. I'm not used to being a teacher, but... Mitigation is about reduction, to reduce the impact. So usually, when we talk about mitigation, it's using EVs, using public transport.

22:26 Energy transition. Energy transition, energy efficiency, those are all mitigation. But at the same time, we also know Malaysia, as a relatively small country, we only contribute 0.7%, less than 0.7% of global carbon emissions currently. So even if we do our part, but other countries don't, climate change will continue to happen. And even if all countries manage to fulfil their commitments under the Paris Agreement, we cap our temperature rise at 1.5 degrees Celsius. Even that looks increasingly challenging. Even if we achieve 1.5 degrees Celsius, there will be temperature rises, sea level rises, and various other things.

23:12 So, we have to adapt to climate change, whether we like it or not. So there are simple things. Like what KJ said earlier about our culture. Our culture, for example, wearing batik shirts. That's an example, that's why now we can wear batik shirts every day as civil servants. That is more suitable for our temperature. Another thing is house design. Because we were used to it before. Like my grandfather's house in Kelantan, it really had a boat underneath. So, when the water rose, he was ready for it. But modern design is not adapted to our climate. But there are also other things, for example, how we maintain green areas in the city.

23:59 Because these urban areas, they have the urban heat island effect. So when there's this effect, for example, the temperature between KLCC and the temperature at the Gombak Orang Asli Hospital, which isn't far. but the Gombak Orang Asli Hospital is greener, right? The difference is up to 6 degrees Celsius at midday. So how do we reduce it? Have more green areas, parks, and so on. So those are among the adaptation measures. So it's not everything, there are things we also need to do like flood walls and others, but not everything is with concrete infrastructure. Maintaining green areas can also help reduce floods and other things. So that's why, for us, adaptation is given less attention. Many people focus on mitigation and forget about adaptation.

24:51 Okay, maybe we'll take a short break, and we'll come back to discuss a bit more about the ministry and also policies related to climate change together with the Honourable Minister Nik Nazmi Nik Ahmad.

25:52 Welcome back to a special episode with the Honourable Minister, Mr Nik Nazmi Nik Ahmad. Before we dive into discussing politics, and surely there are many things to discuss regarding politics, we are still discussing matters of principles or policies, especially those related to the NRES Ministry, which is the Ministry of Natural Resources and Sustainability and also what's the full title? Ministry of Natural Resources and Sustainability. Natural Resources and Sustainability. Yes. It went through various changes, yes, it's back to the original. I think during Pak Lah's era, it already existed. Previously NRE, right? Natural Resources and Environment, yes. Correct. There was a time, I think the first Minister with that name was the late Tan Sri Adenan Satem perhaps, yeah, if I remember correctly.

26:45 Still discussing this policy. I'm impressed with the Honourable Minister's socks. The Honourable Minister's socks, if you can't see it on camera, look. Thank you, long view. It has patterns of a tiger and a cat. Yes, a tiger and a cat. Tiger and cat. Four. This also has a message, the tiger and the cat. This is a campaign, or cartoon characters Rimau and Oyen. Rimau and Oyen. It promotes the conservation of the Malayan tiger. Oh, okay. But perhaps to make it more relatable, it includes Oyen as well. Because the tiger can be considered endangered. We don't want it to become extinct. Correct. But Oyen is not yet endangered. Not yet. So far. Many Oyens still around. Tell us how many tigers do we have left?

27:34 Our last official census published in 2021, at that time, there were fewer than 150. That is the lowest. We once had 3,000 around the 1950s. But our latest indication, we haven't published the official census yet, is a slight increase. Okay. Which we will, once there's a full and final tally, we will publish. But the early indication is there's a slight increase. Perhaps, I mean, our assumption is, one reason is because we now have community rangers, which I remember the program existed even during KJ's time. Now we have added more, recruiting Orang Asli and also army veterans to help because we need to fight against poachers.

28:22 Next, yes, we also have contributions to the state governments, the Ecological Fiscal Transfer, starting at RM60 million in 2019, it increased and has now reached RM250 million. That also led to an increase in protected areas. But, they are still not out of the woods, literally. Because one issue is, poaching might have decreased, but their food source, because previously there was African Swine Flu. So, wild boars were heavily affected. Secondly, the sambar deer, another one of their staple foods, is also not in a safe state. So that's when they start, even though food is insufficient, they will still go out searching, and that leads to conflict for these tigers.

29:09 What about the development of corridors so they can cross? There used to be a problem, I still remember when I was in the government, for these tigers, one threat was when they wanted to move from one roaming area to another, they had to pass through areas with no protection for them, posing a risk to them. That is still a challenge, that's why there is the Central Forest Spine program in Peninsular Malaysia. The major separation is between Johor, and also the north. Meaning Pahang northwards. Because Johor is separated. That's why if we look, the elephant issue in Johor is quite critical. We are aware there are also tigers in Johor, but the problem is when they need to cross. So, there are programs, one is, gazetting forests in the Central Forest Spine area.

29:59 But much still needs to be done. There's also like in Sabah, of course Sabah has no tigers, but in terms of their elephant conservation, their Pygmy elephants, the palm oil plantations maintain a forest landscape. Because otherwise, they will disturb the palm oil. So they maintain this, even though the land belongs to the palm oil company, the elephants can still cross. So, that is our target. Another one is wildlife crossings. Some have been built in Perak, in several other places too, these crossings, in Pahang, if I'm not mistaken. Meaning otherwise, they have to cross roads and that's dangerous. And like the ECRL for example, it's largely elevated. So this allows these animals to pass underneath, yes.

30:46 Okay. Anything else on policy? I have one more, maybe Shahril. I think, perhaps in terms of sustainability, we've discussed several components, right? Recently there's a CCUS bill, for which if possible YB could please clarify a little, whether the absence of Sabah and Sarawak being included in that bill, will have a negative effect on its impact? I think that's the most recent one, in terms of bills slightly related to YB's ministry. Yes, the CCUS is spearheaded by the Ministry of Economy. Of course, we participate to provide input, from the perspective of decarbonisation, from the environmental aspect.

31:35 And but yes, because there are several viewpoints regarding the bill from a constitutional standpoint by Sabah and Sarawak, so the Bill was initiated, or the act was initiated involving Peninsular Malaysia. I see that, for me, it's a starting point, because maybe now we have the actual bill, in operation. We can begin operations in our main area, for Peninsular Malaysia, in Terengganu. And we can, because there are many interested companies and so on. And perhaps because we also know at the Sabah and Sarawak level, they also have their own frameworks

32:23 regarding this decarbonization issue, so they can also look at that model. So I believe rather than waiting to get immediate consensus, there might be its own challenges. So we start first with the CCUS bill. But in terms of discussions so far, for instance, regarding our plan to create a national climate change bill. God willing, we will pass it mid-year this year. And regarding Sabah and Sarawak, I have met with the Right Honourable Premier and also the Right Honourable Chief Minister, and they have no issue accepting the Federal Government's function as the party to the international treaty.

33:09 In terms of reporting to the UNFCCC, on climate change matters, that is indeed the Federal Government. So in that context, they accept it, and we also accept if they want to make laws regarding carbon credits and so on, that is indeed the state's right. But there needs to be a framework at the national level. So that's our understanding. Honourable Minister, I want to discuss briefly the exploration of rare earths or REE (Rare Earth Elements). As we know, REE is something that promises high economic potential, used in various new industries, especially green industries, batteries, magnets, and so forth,

33:55 and is sought after by major countries. It is said that here in Malaysia, we also have large rare earth deposits that have not yet been explored, but there are initial reports from geologists saying that they do exist. And this REE, for the information of KS listeners and viewers, requires coordination between the Federal Government and also the state governments because land belongs to the state government; to dig this land, you need permission from the state government first. But if I'm not mistaken, regarding exportation and so on, it falls under the Ministry or the Federal Government. Recently, this REE issue was raised again because some time ago, in 2023,

34:41 the Honourable Minister himself said that guidelines and SOPs regarding REE or rare earths would be issued. Meaning the cabinet would discuss the regulations for extracting rare earths from Malaysian soil because there will be impacts on the environment, the government, or the local community if it is not done carefully, there will be impacts, possibly radioactive and so on. Recently, it was raised in the Kedah State Legislative Assembly by our friend, the Right Honourable Dato' Seri Sanusi. He said he asked the Ministry to expedite this SOP. The SOP was talked about in 2023, Honourable Minister. It's now 2025. What happened to that SOP?

35:29 Because he said Kedah could earn nearly RM1 billion in revenue, but they can't extract these rare earths because the Honourable Minister hasn't finalized the SOP yet. Okay, I think my friend Dato' Seri Sanusi is also aware of this matter. Actually, we have already shared the SOP with all states. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, states like Negeri Sembilan and several others, like Negeri Sembilan, have adopted it fully. The SOP that the federal [government] shared was then fully adopted by Negeri Sembilan. But some states made adjustments according to state conditions, because going back to the constitutional issue, the state list includes minerals. So actually, there's no issue with the SOP.

36:15 That is clear. Just that, for instance, what might be the case is if it occurs in or if this REE is found in forest areas, what then, for example? He said in the forest. As far as our existing policy goes, from what I remember for years, since KJ's time or even before, is that we do not allow mineral exploration within permanent forest reserve areas. That is the policy. And that's the first point. But secondly, we are actually conducting studies. We are currently conducting studies, one in Perak and one in Johor. These involve areas where the landscape is still forest, but they are no longer HSK (Permanent Forest Reserves).

37:02 So policy-wise, there's no violation. So we want to see because if you ask people in the REE industry, they say it can be done correctly, sustainably, and without causing damage. It's not opencast, it uses 'in situ leaching', so this mining process is very meticulous. That's what they say. That's what they say. I've seen it, but I saw it in Kenering, in a rubber plantation area, and it was indeed done well. But of course, a forest reserve is different. Or a forest. So, now we are conducting a study involving FRIM and several related agencies for us to obtain valid data, because my concern is that if we don't do it correctly, when it's time to sell, it will become like the palm oil issue. Later when selling, because this will be used for EVs, for windmills, wind turbines, and many other things.

37:53 So, it's for the green industry but not extracted greenly, even if the one extracting it is Sanusi, it will create problems for selling later on. So that is our only concern. But indeed, several states have already issued licenses and so on. But there's another problem, if I may add a little, which also goes back to the issue because it largely depends on state legislation. There are states that impose excessively high duties. That is beyond our control. We advise the states. So there was an international company that went to this one state, the duty was 50%. So that's even before federal duties and others. So they looked at 50%, they didn't want it. Like Perak, they impose it at a more competitive level.

38:42 So it requires cooperation from all parties, and we are also trying to help the states, and we are fortunate because we have Lynas, which is Australian, in Pahang, and we also have, in Kenering where the mine is, operated by a Chinese company. So both of these are major powers in terms of REE. So meaning we can take advantage of both sides. But the states also need to play their part. Returning to Kedah, the issue is the permanent forest reserve. I understand the issue now is, Dato' Seri Sanusi wants to explore in the permanent forest reserve. The Honourable Minister, for now, does not allow it. Because of concerns about the impact on our permanent forest reserves.

39:29 Is there a way to conduct a pilot project in Kedah? It's said it has been done in Johor and Perak. Perhaps you could bring those who say it can be done sustainably and set up a trial site in Kedah? I think there's no problem. I can discuss it with Dato' Seri Sanusi. If there's a suitable site, I also understand, I mean to be fair. Meaning, we understand the requests from the states and so on. They also don't want to miss out on this development, so we are open. If the application can be made, we have no problem discussing it. Okay. Great, KS becomes a platform for reconciliation between PN and PH. Okay, politics? Not political. Maybe.

40:16 So perhaps we can start this political segment, YB, considering YB is the Vice President of Parti Keadilan [PKR], and we are aware that Parti Keadilan is in the process of elections. Before we get to the really hot topic, maybe YB can tell us about the reforms that have already taken place in the PKR election system, because from what I understand KJ, I don't know if KJ follows this or not. Previously, PKR was known for and proud of the 'one member, one vote' concept. Every member had a vote, the right to vote, but now the number of voters has shrunk. Is that a reform that YB agrees with, and why is it a good thing?

41:05 We had lengthy discussions about when to change that system. Indeed, we introduced 'one member, one vote' in 2010. There have been several developments, but fundamentally, that was the principle used to elect the leadership up until this year's election. So, just what we observed among the effects previously, when it was 'one member, one vote', and I remember KJ and I have shared experiences. Julau. Julau, perhaps mostly in Sabah and Selangor, I would say.

41:56 So there's that disproportionate aspect, that's one. But secondly, which for me, also becomes a point of discussion. Sometimes it produces people who are only good at gathering people but offer nothing in terms of their role as a division chief. Because coincidentally, for example, okay, they support Mr A's list in that area. They manage to bring 10,000 members, Mr A likes it because he becomes Deputy President. But this person, they can bring people, but to negotiate with they are sometimes not the best person to negotiate with allies in PH or with BN, and so on. They aren't actually the real potential candidate or the best local leader from that perspective.

42:42 But from the perspective of gathering people, they are good. It creates the wrong incentives. It's not right. Like myself during elections, we would focus on a few super divisions. For us, because you can, by winning those, secure victory, right? So now, what system has it changed to? So at the division level, it's still one member, one vote. But at the central level for President, Deputy, Vice Presidents up to the Central Leadership Council. Division. Bahagian. Cabang means Bahagian (Division). Why can't you just be normal, just call it Bahagian? It's because of our history with a political party. History from Parti Kebangsaan Melayu Malaya, Parti Rakyat. So, we have to be different.

43:30 Okay, fine. You know, the other mainstream one? Like... I know you'll ask me a question after this about that, but never mind. So, Ranting is the branch. Okay. But for our central [leadership], it's elected by delegates, where previously our delegates were similar, in a way. I think we had central leadership 5 plus 7. Their leadership meant 12 [delegates] per division. So, we had a total of close to 3,000, I remember, delegates nationwide. But we were also concerned if the number of delegates became too small, like UMNO also went through this process. Then it becomes self-defeating. Many wrong incentives too. So now our delegate system is quite complicated, but the delegates will range between over 80 up to 156.

44:27 Based on, meaning if the division has 10,000 members or more. Oh, okay, okay. They will get, there's a weightage. And there must be 30% women and 30% Youth Wing (Angkatan Muda) within those delegates. So, these delegates at the division level will vote for the central [leadership]. Correct. Right. And these delegates are nominated, aside from-- So, all Division Committee Members, Division Women's Committee Members, Division Youth (AMK) Committee Members become automatic delegates. That was earlier, I don't remember that number anymore, but the balance is basically those nominated by the Division Chief. It's like a party list under proportional representation. So meaning, let's say, okay, I contest in the division against Afdlin Shauki.

45:15 Okay, let's say I get-- This isn't hypothetical, this is real. Okay. Okay, as of today, I'm contesting against him. Let's say I get 55% of the vote, then the delegates other than the committee members, meaning I get 55% [of delegate nomination rights], he gets 45%. Meaning, the issue is, it's not one winner takes all. Oh. Meaning even the person who loses, provided they get above 15%, can nominate delegates to the party congress. Wow, that's complicated. Do the party members understand this new system? I try to explain it and I also advised the Central Election Committee. I said, you need to make a video, right? If KS wants to bid for the video production tender, you can. but I feel... Because the rule was simple to understand.

46:03 Because before it was one member one vote, right? Straightforward. But it's a process that we have to go through. But perhaps the reason for it is to ensure there's more fairness in terms of the election method. Right, right. But hopefully it doesn't become too difficult to understand and cause problems, otherwise more seats will fly away, Honourable Member. But most, except for the delegates who are committee members, the others will basically vote online. Okay. Okay. Let's talk more generally, because I think recently Keadilan celebrated its 26th anniversary. If I'm not mistaken, 26, right? Year 1998... 1999. 1999? Sorry, 1999. Now, I see many, because on social media, young members are putting up their posters wanting to contest AMK positions and so on.

47:01 Does the Honourable Member, as someone who has been with Keadilan, actually not PKR but Keadilan, since 1999 and also the Reformasi of 1998, feel that now you are in a very different party? Before it was the party of suffering, the party of struggle, by your own admission, right? The party of suffering. Now it's the not-so-suffering party. The party of luxury, the party with ministers, everyone chasing positions like special officer to a minister, special officer to an Exco, and so on. Where are the values of Reformasi? The Reformasi born on the streets. Is that Reformasi still thriving in the corridors of power in Putrajaya?

47:46 Okay. Loaded question. So, for me, speaking for myself. I mean, I have been through those challenging times, the times in lock-up, the times on the streets, and so on. And I am also fortunate, I mean, I am among the first generation from 2008 when we won many seats, being in government until today. We certainly, although perhaps there are people who form a political party just to be rebels for the sake of it. There are. But like me, from the beginning. From the beginning, meaning for me, we have this political party to win, to have power. For what? To implement reforms. Okay.

48:33 But certainly, when we win, it will attract different kinds of people. When we were struggling, when we were near lock-up, there were certain people attracted to this party, and maybe many who weren't attracted. Now that we have won, there are people who, I mean, feel they want to contribute, have ideas for reforms and so on, wanting to join this party. But there are also those who, I mean, I think maybe-- we know these people. When you are in power, they are at your office. When I'm in power, they are in my office. I mean, they will come. These people will come. Oh, same. We'll discuss later. So, they will come and, you know, they will come wherever the power is. That, for me, is the nature of power. So, if I were to say we are too Puritan, to say we don't want to go through that at all, then we can't win.

49:26 But for me, we have to go through the process of winning. How do we best remind these people who join? And I mean, I don't deny. Perhaps there are people who come, who previously wouldn't have dared to be with Keadilan during the difficult days. But, okay, now you are fortunate, meaning you're lucky. I cannot go back and tell stories of the past - you know, like seniors talking about school days. "In our time it was like..." - that's a grandpa story, the Boomer kind of thing, right? So, we have to understand the reality of today. We just need to get them to say, why did you choose Keadilan? I mean, if we're talking about being in power, there are many other parties that hold power. Perhaps this is the Prime Minister's party, true. But there are other parties that also hold power. But this is a multiracial party. This is a national party where we have strength in Sabah and Sarawak.

50:16 Our policies are, well, more progressive and so on. So, I try to explain these values to them. Not easy. I admit it's not easy, because at the end of the day, this power is a glitter that can easily captivate and people will say whatever now, right? But I think we try our best to educate the party members about these matters. When we say power is a glitter that might attract different individuals. But if I may suggest, YB, perhaps there are claims that even long-standing members of Keadilan have been captivated by this glitter. The question that can be asked is, is this Reformasi or, as some say outside, 'Reforbasi' (stale reform)?

51:04 Because, YB, if we look at the reality, before winning, the same people said appointing politicians to GLCs was not good. Now it's full [of them]. Before winning the election, the appointment of the MACC Commissioner must go through Parliament. Now it's the PM's absolute right. Before the election, the issue of MP allocations was something fair for everyone. It couldn't be restricted. But after the election, after winning power, facing the glitter of power, it's "negotiate first". These are just 3 examples, YB, where what was said before and what is done after are very different. So, what gives? Okay, my simple answer regarding this matter. that, firstly, it's not that we didn't implement reforms.

51:50 Okay, I can give a few examples and then I will address the issue mentioned by Shahril. Previously, Parliament as an institution was often disregarded. So this time, what the Madani Government did, the thing that might seem the simplest and for me, I mean, and I think you also put the Opposition Leader to task the other day. Is that we have PMQ. A question and answer session with the Prime Minister every week. And in the past, sometimes it was even difficult to get the Prime Minister to come to Parliament. But the PM, yes, at least on PMQ day, unless he's really overseas, or even on other days, he tries to be present too.

52:36 At least maybe 2 days a week, sometimes 3 days, he will be in Parliament. And that allows, meaning, one can question the PM directly. Meaning, the PM, then that's the real essence of Westminster, the PM is accountable to Parliament. And that's one reform that, even if it wasn't done, in my opinion, nobody would say, 'what's the benefit of doing it?' But the PM goes through that process. It's difficult to face because sometimes, well, we might misspeak, answer wrongly. But we committed to that. And for me, we hope that can be maintained as a feature of our Parliament. Second is the Parliamentary Service Act. Yes, we were also able to bring that act forward, which we committed to and promised, and Alhamdulillah, we were able to deliver.

53:27 And on the matter of citizenship, yes, we were also able to address that issue with a constitutional amendment. Those are among the few reforms that we have brought forward. Regarding what Shahril mentioned earlier, regarding the issue of... Just on that, Yang Berhormat, before the Honourable addresses the issue Shahril mentioned earlier. Okay, the citizenship [reform] is a big success, I think. But the others, I mean it's hardly the greatest hits of reforms. I mean, you know, it's okay, but it's marginal. Well, I wouldn't say it's marginal because I think, I mean I agree. Maybe some people don't feel it's very high-profile. Okay. Or whatnot. But ensuring the independence of Parliament and the PM's accountability to Parliament.

54:15 That to me is something that is very crucial and central to the position of Parliament itself. And for years, it wasn't taken seriously by many Prime Ministers. And I mean we could easily, like you say, meaning we talk about it, but once we win, we forget about the Parliament issue with various excuses, right? But we, I think you know, we delivered that as best as we can. Regarding several other matters, for example, the issue of allocations. You know we have reached out. And I agree, okay, we can debate about why there needs to be negotiation and so on. It's just that the conditions we set are all quite basic.

55:00 Just so that we have, you know, in terms of auditing, rules of the game, parliamentary debates and so on, which are quite general, not restricting the opposition's ability to hold us accountable. In fact, I don't think that they have really done their job as the opposition. But that didn't happen. Although repeated efforts were made, we tried to write [proposals], we tried to discuss, and so on. And unlike during PM9's time, when they reached out, we addressed it, we discussed. There were several things we disagreed on, but we dealt with it with the government at that time. So that's one issue where I feel there's a difference in what we are doing today. So for me,

55:53 Regarding allocations, because the other day the Opposition Leader came, he also had a different view from the Honourable member. He said they were not informed or something like that. Can the Honourable member confirm on KS today that this allocation issue can be resolved this year as well? Meaning, all Members of Parliament elected by the people will receive it easily. Automatically. Yes, for me, I mean the moment they are willing to be at the table. Meaning they will get it. Why do they have to be at the table? They already won, right? Table? SU can give a briefing during lunchtime as usual, right, maybe while eating in front of Parliament. SU can brief them, okay, if you want to claim the allocation, this is the procedure, this is the governance for requesting and approving the allocation, it's all settled then.

56:42 Yes. Well you know, I think for us, just like before, it's just about what agreement we want to have for this? If I may ask, I don't know if YB is comfortable answering this or not. Are there factions within the Unity Government who are actually uncomfortable giving allocations to opposition members, and is that actually the reason? It's not about negotiating or not. UMNO, eh? UMNO? Eh no. In my opinion, differing views will always exist. Okay, true, meaning when we first raised it, in fact when the matter was discussed at length initially and we said, okay let's discuss. There were those who said, why discuss? No need to discuss, full stop. No need for it at all. Right? But meaning we felt that we also wanted, I mean we want to fix this matter, it's among the things we want to do.

57:30 I've experienced times when we didn't get that money, right? I've felt it too, and I remember, so we don't want that to happen again. So indeed, there were those who felt it didn't need to be discussed. As if it's a non-issue. They said as government, it's our right not to even discuss with them, but we think that we should be different. Yes, indeed regarding views on these few matters, there are, I mean I think... I can't say it's 100% UMNO or anything, not really, because within UMNO too, many are quite positive. And I think you know they know that this is a different reality. But it is not, what do you call it, we are not a government that, well, meaning we are a government that

58:17 came together after the election and there are those differences of views, which we have to acknowledge. Major appointments as mentioned earlier, previously it was said there would be a Parliamentary committee that would vet, that would screen major appointments, for example, the appointment of the MACC Chief Commissioner and so on. But now it seems as though, like usual, it's centralized to one person, namely the Prime Minister. Yes, regarding that matter, I remember, because it also involves several parties. So, which parties are those? Come on. Don't use euphemisms. Other parties in government. Same script as before. Understood. And because, for example, it involves the issue of the PM's power

59:05 to advise the Yang di-Pertuan Agong and so on. So, to be clear, meaning, any process we want to implement, we have to-- But there are discussions we have started regarding how to improve these institutions. The hereditary ruling party starter kit. We have our series of arguments. Yes. But if I can push a bit further, YB. I always hear the excuse, though to your credit YB, you haven't used this excuse yet. That because this isn't purely a Pakatan Harapan government. This is a coalition government. YB hinted at this earlier. I always joke with KJ, if we could ask the Madani Government representative,

59:55 since that excuse is always used, what is the list of reforms disagreed upon by, for example, UMNO? So that it's clear what Pakatan Harapan actually wants to do and what UMNO won't allow. Because if I were old school UMNO, I'd be happy now, KJ. Because it's not me having to follow PKR. PKR has to follow my way. Well, I think when we formed this Unity Government, everyone got something they wanted, and everyone had to make sacrifices. And I don't think it's a case of, say, Keadilan sacrificing a lot or UMNO sacrificing a lot. Each side had to compromise, meaning, we knew realistically we couldn't get 100% of what we wanted.

1:00:43 So, that's something I think we acknowledge. But I'm not saying that oh, this was rejected only by UMNO and so on, because for me, there were also many positive things that UMNO supported, and I feel, meaning, credit is where credit is due from that perspective. But I'm not going to tell, you know, how the sausage is made. I have tried, I have tried and you have to respond. Okay, we'll take a short break and we'll be back after this.

1:02:06 Welcome back to KS with the Honourable Minister Nik Nazmi Nik Ahmad. We are discussing politics, earlier we mentioned the issue of reformation, the issue of policy changes and also several reforms, some of which might have been implemented. some have been less successful so far. I want to go back to the issue of the party election, YB, because as we mentioned earlier, PKR is now seen as the party of the government. So getting a position in Keadilan now is a bigger deal, more lucrative than before. Previously, getting a position meant being in the opposition.

1:02:52 But now, winning in the party election might lead to a promotion, maybe a Cabinet reshuffle, getting a better ministry. What's the atmosphere of the election like now? And I understand YB will be defending the Vice President position. But for this Vice President post, how many have already announced or hinted that they want to run? I didn't count. I think 8, 9 people, if not more. Quite a lot, because the stakes are higher. Because if you win, maybe you'll become a Deputy Minister, or a Minister. Ministers, if they lose, might worry about losing their position in the Cabinet and so on. Perhaps YB can tell us a bit about the current election atmosphere, the difference compared to before, and also YB's own chances of defending the Vice President post.

1:03:41 The atmosphere is indeed different, because in 2022, I think our morale, especially after the Johor, Melaka state elections. After that, after Johor, Melaka, and as we headed... if you start from the Sheraton Move, then Johor, Melaka, Sabah, Sarawak. During all that, the party's mood was quite low at that time. And our campaign at that time was for us to enter the general election with the best lineup. And Alhamdulillah, we managed, although not an absolute win, but we managed to form the government and Dato' Seri Anwar Ibrahim became Prime Minister. This time, the mood is, we are already in the government.

1:04:27 For Vice President, the 4 who won last time, the highest votes went to Amirudin Shari, Dato' Seri Amirudin, the Selangor MB. At that time, he was already MB. Then followed by Chang Lih Kang, now the MOSTI Minister. Then me, and fourth was Dato' Seri Aminuddin Harun, the Negeri Sembilan MB. 4 were elected. Elected. 3 out of 4 were Team R, one was Team X. We were Team A. Okay, so there were teams, meaning you're confirming it. Team Anwar Ibrahim. Oh, I see. So this time the situation is different. And I don't feel that, although saying I'm a minister might seem like an advantage,

1:05:14 but also, everyone, with the new system and so on, I think it's an open field. But at the same time, we are also very sensitive that this time's election must be managed well. Because we are the Prime Minister's party. Meaning all eyes are on us. If we remember 2018, it was quite heated, we were the government then. and we don't want to repeat that. In 2022, although the election was lively, ultimately I saw the atmosphere remained positive. It didn't lead to party splits like in 2018. But as a minister, is there an advantage during this campaign?

1:06:01 No, to say there's an advantage... For some people, there's a grey area. Maybe ministry programs, they go down to the state, they slip in party programs as well. I remember YB's party used to complain if we used government premises, government machinery. Now even the Political Bureau holds meetings at Seri Perdana, I saw recently? Well, I think that, at the end of the day, it's a matter of security, logistics, I know... No, I never. From the start, I've said, I'm very clear regarding political cabinet meetings at Downing Street. Downing Street.

1:06:46 Of course, within reasonable limits. And just what I want, in terms of advantage, I think there isn't really one -- Okay, there are pros and cons. The work as a minister, as KJ knows, is also a lot and eyes are on us too. Whereas if you don't have a government position, you have more flexibility and so on. I don't think, I don't want, I hope, I feel it's much more competitive this time. I think I have a good chance, but it's far more competitive. But I don't hope people judge me because I am a minister. I hope people judge me as an individual, what I can offer the party to strengthen the party for the future.

1:07:32 Because after this is the General Election to enable Dato' Seri Anwar to win again as PM or not. That's where the party should be, that should be the vision. Sometimes we have the wrong incentives where the party election is everything. Sometimes in certain areas, many turn out to vote for the party election. During the general election, it's hard even to find PACA. Polling agents, counting agents are hard to find. That, to me, shouldn't happen. Because our objective should be the General Election. I see, KJ, in this PKR election, the openness is indeed a bit different from what we're used to. A minister can be challenged in his own division by Afdlin Shauki. I think in UMNO, that doesn't happen. If you're already a minister, in your division, someone wants to challenge you as division chief, it's unusual.

1:08:22 So there's a uniqueness there that perhaps we want to try and understand more deeply. Just now YB mentioned... Pretending to be scared to join PKR? No. I'm just relaxing for now. YB feels that being a minister has its pros and cons. Just now YB mentioned wanting to be judged as an individual contributing to the party. But returning to KJ's earlier question, in terms of party membership, perhaps it's different now, attracting different people. But now when evaluating a leader in PKR, perhaps there's also debate, we need to look at their performance as a minister. Their performance as an EXCO, their performance in whatever position held. In that regard, does YB hope that YB's performance so far will contribute to a higher ranking, perhaps, in the VP list?

1:09:12 Honestly, I can't run away from it. People will also look, if I'm already a minister, already a Member of Parliament, that matter will also contribute to my evaluation, the public's evaluation of me during the election. So I hope people will view that positively, as someone who can convey government policies well and implement government policies positively as well. So that's what I hope for. Regarding this election again, just now KJ touched on the different teams. YB answered quite skillfully, saying everyone is Team A, Team Anwar.

1:10:04 But the reality is, YB, we know, even those of us not in PKR know, that indeed within PKR's openness, there will be several factions. And the 2 main factions are those seen as very close to the Prime Minister and another faction that is very close to the Deputy President Rafizi Ramli. Does YB see that in the current election, at the division level or at the central level, is this 'cai' contest, these two lists, currently in play? That's normal. In terms of 'cai', meaning people proposing lineups, permutations. That's normal. But for VP earlier, Nik Nazmi, Chang Lih Kang, Amirudin, Aminuddin Negeri Sembilan. So these 3.

1:10:58 Then the other one? Last year, the one who officiated my division AGM was Dato' Seri Amir, the Selangor MB. That's skillful. We know that trick too. No, just what I want to return to on that issue, one is although there are certain 'cai' (lists) that will be shared and so on. But there will also be, with current skills, I don't know if it's AI skills or Photoshop skills, people will make their own 'cai' too. I mean, that's one thing. Third is, people will make their own choices, like ala carte. The term is ala carte. When it goes down to the ground, they say 'cai' is one thing, but our division's assessment is different. So that also cannot be underestimated. Members want to see performance, just because you're on a 'cai', you can't expect the 'cai' to ensure your win.

1:11:47 You yourself have to do the work. So just for me, because ultimately, like the President, there is no contest, so that question doesn't arise. Is that policy or is it just... No, so far. So far, regarding the President, from this aspect, we don't see anyone challenging the President. But it's not a policy decision. Not a policy decision, and the President has also advised, he said he feels it would be good for the Deputy President to be given the same space. But we don't have any rules, motions, nothing. Because we feel that's also not... Not necessary. Yes, that's right. But we feel like we don't want to make this an official thing.

1:12:38 This Deputy President position, so far, has no challenger. The other day, word was that Amir wanted to go for it. After that, he got cold feet, he announced it at the Bureau, at the Selangor Keadilan Convention. He pivoted back to [contest] Vice President. So, as of now, there's no one? As far as I know, no one. I don't know, God knows. The deadline hasn't passed yet. So, it should be okay, I guess? Have to ask him. He has sat here before, we can ask him again. We should ask again. What causes these two factions, YB? Is it a difference in approach, a difference in ideology? I don't think it's that complex. Is there, what is the difference between team RR and team AI? There isn't, because if you want to say that, well, things evolve.

1:13:27 So to speak. So, for me, like I said, this time around, I don't see that kind of permutation. If I have to say, I wouldn't classify it as team AI versus team RR. Okay. It's just the difference in any democracy, any election. Sometimes people are like-- to me it's self-defeating, where people will say, oh, they don't want to have- want to have an election but don't want differing views. That's part and parcel of democracy. How you handle it? I agree, meaning sometimes we went overboard. The party looks divided and so on. I don't agree with that either. But we shouldn't be afraid of that, and I feel even now, if you-- like Brother Rafizi was clear, he said he wants to focus on the Central Election Department

1:14:17 as the Election Director, to make sure that we can win for Dato' Seri Anwar to go to the second term. That's why, you know, all the economic reforms are important. So, for me, I don't see the kind of difference mentioned earlier. But if we shift from the election for a moment, YB. Speaking of differing views that YB himself acknowledged will indeed exist in a party like PKR. Any party, really, but PKR is more open to accepting that openly, right? What are the differences on major issues, like governance, major political issues, whether it's the matter of long-term cooperation with Barisan Nasional, whether it's in terms of how fast we want to implement reforms and so on. Is that the core difference?

1:15:02 What is the core difference? Or is it more just about personality? I think now those main issues are not the-- the issues mentioned earlier, yes, they are among the issues that of course are considered and have also been points of difference. Previously, the question of who to cooperate with and so on.

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