EP143 | Garis Panduan Umat Islam, Kenaikan Tarif Elektrik, Pajakan Helikopter, Rancangan Trump-Gaza

0:00 But some also say there's no need for guidelines at all. That Muslims know what to do. I don't feel comfortable with that view because, yes, maybe most of us know, if we go, for example, to a wedding, of a friend of a different faith, what we can do, what we can't do in the church, if they're singing hymns and stuff like that, don't join in, and all that. But is it wrong to have guidelines so that people, so it's clear?

1:15 Welcome to episode 143 of Keluar Sekejap, with me, KJ. I'm Shahril Hamdan. This episode is brought to you by Bursa Gold Dinar, your go-to for gold. Which is probably why, Shahril, there are a few gold bars on the KS table. These gold bars are from Shahril's savings, if I'm not mistaken. If they were my savings, this is all I'd have. It looks like that, but it's actually plastic. Or just paper. Just paper. There's one on the side. Just, you know. This is what I'm worth. That's a lot. Okay, how are your investments going this year?

2:02 How are your investments, Shahril? I know Shahril likes to invest in assets like the stock market, equities, and so on. Just trying it out. Trying my luck. It's doing well? It's doing okay. 2025 just started. It's doing okay. There are a few stock picks that haven't given me the returns I was hoping for. But I'm getting older too. KJ has a slightly different risk appetite. I've started to learn what people used to say, just don't try and time the market too much. And actually index funds, just follow the index. Usually it's a safer bet long term. I like it when Shahril says "follow the old ways." Because if we really followed the old ways,

2:49 we wouldn't play the stock market at all. Well, maybe if you were to buy stocks, you'd buy what you could call blue chip stocks. The ones where we know the business has government concessions or a monopoly, and so on. Or look for assets that can be considered safe assets. Safe haven assets. Of course, gold is one of them. Probably the oldest. The old timers. They would definitely invest in gold. When I was chairman of PUNB, which provides loans to small and medium-sized businesses, we gave many loans to entrepreneurs who had shops selling goods or gold.

3:34 Especially on the east coast and in the northern parts of Malaysia, where they still feel the value of gold makes more sense than any other kind of investment. And some people say you should allocate five to ten percent of your investment portfolio to gold. Perhaps Shahril would like to share with the KS listeners and viewers why gold is considered a safe investment asset? I guess it's a safe haven asset, which acts as a hedge against macroeconomic conditions. Suppose the macroeconomic conditions are less favorable in terms of returns for other assets. For example, when interest rates drop or plummet a little, the opportunity cost of holding an asset

4:26 like gold, which is a non-interest bearing asset, like gold, its opportunity cost decreases. When interest rates are high, we invest in assets that provide returns. Fixed deposits or bonds, and so on. Yes, so when the interest rate is a bit more depressed, then you go for non-interest bearing assets like gold, where there are other reasons to hold it in terms of its history and its status as a safe haven asset. Now, with the emergence of Donald Trump in the United States, potentially sparking trade wars and so on, I see the prospect or forecast, the prediction

5:13 for the price of gold becoming more positive, perhaps. Because, as Shahril said, in situations where geopolitical risk, the risk of investing in other assets increases, people will turn to safe haven assets like gold. And if we look, I understand that central banks are also accumulating gold. And that's why the volume or the increase in the price of gold is currently, we see, is becoming quite significant. Absolutely, central bank purchases have exceeded 1,000 tons for the third consecutive year. And in the fourth quarter of last year, if I'm not mistaken, demand was very high.

5:58 Probably because, yes, interest rates are declining in most economies, increased geopolitical risk, and also political and economic uncertainty. For first principles, for those who might want to learn the basics without us teaching too much, I guess what we didn't say, KJ, is holding cash is not good. Because it will always lose to inflation. So you have to allocate your wealth somewhere. So one ringgit today most likely won't be worth one ringgit five years from now. The principle of inflation, basically. So in good times, you might buy equities, you might buy other assets. The goal is also against inflation because it tends to rise in value. And it's intrinsic.

6:44 I mean, it's... Well, one day we might talk about crypto. Because crypto has... Remember there was a point, right? Why is crypto... What is the basis for crypto's valuation? Somebody said gold is the same. It's just a metal. It's just a metal. But people will say gold has thousands of years of history. Bitcoin only has a few years of history. But it's just a metal. But the concept, in terms of speculation, if we're talking about crypto. Anyway, we're not sponsored by a crypto company today. No, but we are very interested in holding gold, and I will be looking... I mean, we don't... We're not investment advisors. We're not certified investment advisors, but personally, I'll be looking at diversifying my portfolio, and gold certainly is extremely attractive right now.

7:32 And speaking of that, it makes it easier for you, it's very easy for you to invest in gold. Because people don't know how to buy gold as part of a portfolio. Other than going to a jewelry store and buying a gold pendant. So, there's a new app. Well, there's an app out there by Bursa Malaysia called Bursa Gold Dinar. That's right. Have you downloaded this app? Bursa Gold Dinar. I haven't downloaded this app, but I will after this episode. For as little as RM10, you can start investing in gold. And that's not the only thing that makes Bursa Gold Dinar attractive. It's also a concept or a product where, perhaps for some,

8:18 they don't just want to invest, but they want to hold the gold itself. Physically. But if it's a large gold bar, it might not be easily accessible to everyone. That's the concept of Bursa Gold Dinar. So it's basically a dinar coin, right? It's a coin. And for just the current price, if I'm not mistaken, under RM2,000, you can already hold one. And if you want to redeem it, to actually hold it, you can. Otherwise, Bursa Gold Dinar itself will hold or hold the asset for you. So through Bursa Gold Dinar, we can buy gold dinars, every 4.25 grams of digital gold to get a gold dinar.

9:08 And the best part, Shahril, is instant cash redemption at any time. So, say you've invested in these gold dinars through Bursa Gold Dinar, you can monetize it into cash at any time. When the value goes up, and so on. And this is all Shariah-compliant, of course. Shariah-based gold investment, manage and monitor your zakat obligations. And the best part of this partnership with KS, Shahril, is that we're less than a month away from Ramadan. And after Ramadan, of course, in Syawal, we celebrate Hari Raya Aidilfitri. As usual, Shahril will give us all "duit raya."

9:55 But this time, maybe Shahril will give it to us in gold. Yes, that's right. If each of us in KS could download the app, that application, if the inspiration comes to me to give "duit raya" to the KS staff through... Amen, amen, amen. Staff, yes, staff. I'm staff too. That "duit raya" doesn't necessarily have to come in a packet. It doesn't necessarily have to be through e-"duit raya" like others. But why not give "duit raya" through Bursa Gold Dinar? Because you can transfer it. It's not just... We, as investors, can send gold to loved ones just through our phones. Oh wow. Yeah, so you can transfer it. This promotion starts on the 13th of February and runs until the 31st of May this year.

10:47 Long period. Long, yeah. And as usual, it's subject to terms and conditions Okay, KJ, let's start our episode. Discussing some interesting topics. We had the Kena Soal session in the last episode. Or rather, the first episode. I see that the feedback has been mostly positive. But we'll also maintain our core product, which is the weekly podcast, maybe one that's more focused on current topical issues. Right. And a topical issue that has actually been lingering for quite a long time is the increase in industrial electricity tariffs. Or rather, the electricity tariff hike. Because the PM, PMX, at the beginning of February

11:33 stated that electricity tariffs need to be increased in the second half of this year. This is actually a statement confirming what happened in late 2024 when TNB issued a statement and announcement which at the time was said to be too early, premature, and lacking details. Now, the details are starting to emerge, following the PM's statement earlier this month, giving an assurance that although there will be an electricity tariff increase, it will not burden the business community, apart from 85% of households who will continue to receive subsidies. So once again, the T15 who will experience the tariff increase,

12:21 the amount, the quantum, has not yet been finalized, but PMX denied that it will be 14% as previously reported. KJ, I think we need to briefly discuss what is the Incentive Based Regulation, or IBR, that is used, what is the formula used when Malaysia sets tariffs. Because our electricity tariff system and mechanism is different from other countries. Which may have a more free market. In Malaysia, basically, without making it too complicated, KJ, basically every 3 to 5 years, the government sets it through the Energy Commission and with cabinet approval. KJ, having been in the cabinet, can confirm what the base tariff amount is,

13:08 perhaps the base tariff. The base tariff is the first figure, then there are other formulas to ensure that, according to current conditions every 6 months, whether there's a surcharge or a rebate. There's a base tariff, and then they look back over the last 6 months. If fuel costs are too high, then maybe there's a surcharge. If fuel costs decrease, then there's a rebate to reduce the actual tariff that you pay throughout that regulatory period, that RP that's set. And another point for the information of listeners and viewers who may be less familiar or less aware, basically, TNB cannot make excessive profits because there is a fixed return, percentage-wise, on their regulated assets.

13:55 So if TNB makes large profits, it might be in terms of the numbers, we need to discuss this later because of the optics. But basically, TNB can't make excessive profits from the regulated business. Their non-regulated business, their business outside Malaysia, their business in renewable energy, that's not regulated, that's fine. So we also need to look, when we say TNB is making big profits, how much of their profit is from outside the regulated area of their activities, to be fair. So that's the macro view, KJ. But I guess the optics of it, when we see TNB making billions, billions, billions, and then Singapore lowers their tariffs. How can a government communicate that

14:40 this is necessary? Because that's PMX's argument. Maybe KJ wants to explain based on past experience as well. Well, this is to ensure that the government's fiscal position is actually protected. It's not so much about TNB's profits because, as Shahril mentioned earlier, if, through the cost pass-through formula, if we want to maintain electricity prices at the current price for the majority of users, somebody has to pay for it. And in this context, the government has to pay. And this year is a year where we see a serious effort

15:29 on the part of the government to ensure that decisions to guarantee a more responsible, more disciplined fiscal position can be implemented. That's why many big decisions regarding electricity tariffs, regarding subsidies or targeted subsidies for RON95 petrol, will be made this year. So what we know is that the government has already announced that for some users, namely commercial users, there will indeed be an increase in electricity tariffs. We don't know the details yet, but that's something the government has confirmed.

16:16 Another thing the government has confirmed is that for household users, 85% will continue to be subsidized. So the government's subsidy bill will be reduced because the government no longer needs to subsidize 15% of households and also subsidize the industrial and business sectors. The question circulating among the public is yes, we acknowledge and understand that 85% of household users will not be affected by this electricity tariff increase.

17:01 But people are starting to ask whether the increase borne by industry and businesses will have a knock-on effect, a domino effect, a multiplier effect on the public in terms of consumers and on the economy as a whole. That's the question now. The government guarantees that the inflationary impact or the impact on prices of goods, the impact on the price of services and goods, will not be too burdensome. But we still don't know whether that prediction is accurate or not

17:51 because it's very difficult for us to monitor, for the government to monitor how a business will pass the cost on to consumers. In fact, it is very difficult to detect. And sometimes there will be parties who deliberately use it as an excuse to raise prices. I think, KJ, this is a challenge for any government because the subsidy bill needs to go down. So we can all accept that. Excessively large subsidy spending is not good for sustainability, the fiscal health of the country. The challenge is how to ensure that narrative is palatable, that people can accept it.

18:38 And I've seen several attempts to present various arguments. For example, ultimately, when TNB profits, the shareholders of TNB are GLCs, meaning the people. So there's that attempted argument. So far, I see it's not sticking. And it's not just this administration that's tried to use that excuse or argument. But other administrations, too, I see it's difficult for people to feel that they can accept a price increase because ultimately they get it back. That's a theoretical argument that's hard to accept. It's not just theoretical, Shahril. Because even if they understand that, even if they understand that concept, the EPF returns come from TNB.

19:23 Perhaps in terms of their disposable income, the impact on their income, the impact of a higher electricity bill or higher prices due to the bill or due to higher electricity prices is greater than the dividend returns they'll receive, whether in unit trusts or in EPF. So even those who know about this have already done the calculations in their heads. They say, okay, but my exposure isn't like I'm a big shareholder of TNB. I'm a shareholder of TNB through ASB, through EPF. So, you know, but the bill, I'm paying for the bill. Exactly. Electricity bill. Yeah, so basically, why I brought that up, in my view,

20:10 part of this is a matter of narrative and communication. I wouldn't prioritize that argument. Rather, it’s more about considering how, whenever there’s an impact of a price increase, I can explain it more aggressively and proactively. Will the government use all the profits or what will the lack of spending be used for? And I feel, in the two years this government has been in power, that communication is still lacking clarity. There's a lot of rhetoric about taking from the ultra-rich, and why we don't want to subsidize the rich. I can understand that part, but in the end, for the average person, when they have to bear

20:58 part of this cost, what are they actually getting in return? The communication on that isn't complete yet. Is it about schools? Is it about infrastructure? Is it about rural roads, and so on? If you remember the previous administration, especially during Dato' Najib's first term, he often talked about how many kilometers of road had been built, how many schools had been built. So, when talking about the GST, because GST at that time was the biggest thing driving up prices, there was a story—believe it or not—because other things, maybe people didn't believe. But there was a clear communication strategy there. Here, I don't see that yet. So, that's my suggestion. That's if it's limited to communication weaknesses. But more profoundly,

21:46 we need to ask the question: what are these savings being used for? That's the savings. You mean substantively where? Not about comms, because we also need to know, if there are savings of X this year, for example, savings of 20 billion, let's say 20 billion this year. What is that 20 billion earmarked for? Yes. That's what we want to know. And then, when the government announces that it's been identified for this purpose, they have to justify why it's for this. I'll give an example that's easy to understand and very topical. If we achieve savings of, let's say, 20 billion, from several subsidy adjustments whether it's petrol, diesel, electricity, and so on,

22:34 then immediately that 20 billion, or a large portion of it, is allocated to the Ministry of Health, for example, to ensure that, all health clinics, all these doctors who are resigning, you can stop. Then it's immediate. People see it, and it's not just a matter of communication, but a matter of priority, prioritization. You went straight for the pain point. You went straight for what people are talking about. And I like what you said, KJ, because what you just said goes straight to the other point, which is the prioritisation of this government in terms of its policy. It's not clear. What are you going to spend the money on? Because when you make that decision, you are advertising this is my list of priorities. So, to your point, the substantive point of where the government is prioritising

23:23 isn't clear yet. So, this might be a time for the administration to think about what priorities we want to pursue and also communicate to the people. Because this is just the beginning. We haven't even talked about RON95 yet, and so on. It's good that Shahril mentioned RON95 because this will really test this concept of the knock-on effect. And on social media, some people call it the domino effect. The domino effect is the impact… how do you describe this in Malay? Impact, not side effect, knock-on effect. What? If I just say domino effect, I could have said the same thing. Chain reaction.

24:08 That's better. Chain reaction, well done. You should have worked with Utusan with Bobby. So the knock-on effect means the price of fuel goes up, whether it's electricity or oil, petrol, and the prices of other things go up in a chain reaction. So, this is the main concern of the people right now, Shahril. That they say, okay, we understand that you want to raise petrol prices, you want to raise electricity prices, and only the ultra-rich will be affected. But actually, we, the common people, we will also be affected. Because there will be a domino effect or a knock-on effect. Is this something that the government just has to accept? Of course, there's mitigation, like the compassionate cash aid and so on. But there will be inflation. I think they have to admit that inflation will happen.

24:56 Don't be like before, saying GST can reduce prices. Some people say, from the beginning, they'd say it would increase. But this is the sacrifice that needs to be made together, blah blah blah. I think that's another narrative and argument that I see this administration hasn't tried to make yet. They're trying to tell the average person that the ultra-rich will pay. But there's also an opportunity to say that after years of postponing difficult decisions, like reducing these subsidies, now is the time for this administration to be brave and do it, and I urge all Malaysians to join us on this journey, so that we can spend on more important priorities. That communication isn't there and that rhetoric from PMX isn't there,

25:45 which I think he can do if he wanted to. Instead of just going after the ultra-rich, make this a national project. Yes, I agree, and I think there are several ministries whose task is quite heavy this year. For example, the Ministry of Domestic Trade and Consumer Affairs, they are going to have to monitor very closely if there are any acts of profiteering resulting from the increase in oil prices and electricity prices. Because this is a public concern. But back to your point, whether in terms of the narrative,

26:30 the government can invite the people to join them during this rather difficult period. Yes, they can. But on one condition, that these savings will be used for specific priorities, and I think the people, as usual, they want to see some peace offering from the government. Not just cash transfers, but what are you going to sacrifice? Are ministers going to sacrifice their free petrol, their free toll, their allowances and things like that? I mean, of course, if you add it up, it's not going to be much compared to the subsidy savings, but they want to see that...

27:16 It's shared. It's not just the people bearing the burden. Absolutely. Okay, we'll take a short break and be back after this.

28:01 Welcome back to episode 143 of Keluar Sekejap, brought to you by Bursa Gold Dinar. With Bursa Gold Dinar, it reminds us that Bursa Malaysia is not just a stock exchange, but also a business or an entity in itself. And besides Bursa Gold Dinar, there's also another entity, as I've been informed, KJ, BR Capital, which helps SMEs with debt fundraising. So, this is one of the innovations and revenue stream diversifications of Bursa itself. Anyway, back to our main product that we're partnering with Bursa Malaysia this time, Bursa Gold Dinar. To remind viewers and listeners of Keluar Sekejap,

28:48 you can get 0.03 grams of free gold if you use the code BGDXKS with a minimum investment of RM100, limited to new users only. Bursa Gold Dinar, your go-to for gold. And the period for our campaign is from February 13th to May 31st, 2025. Shahril, over the past 10 years, the price of gold has risen 188%. In the last 10 years, in the last 6 months, it's up 15.8%, almost 16%. So... Beats a lot of other assets. Beats a lot of other assets, a lot of indices.

29:36 I think, especially as I mentioned earlier, with the policy uncertainty, with the statements that continue to be issued by President Trump, which we'll discuss later, which we'll discuss later, gold is a... There's an argument for going to safe haven assets. Trump is gold friendly. As long as Trump is around, gold will get stronger. Once again, we are not giving advice. Do your own research and analysis. But there's an argument. We're offering perspectives and also providing facts about what's happening with the rising price of gold. That's an undeniable fact. Take advantage of this opportunity until May 31st with the code BGDXKS.

30:29 With a minimum investment of RM100 through the Bursa Gold Dinar application, your go-to for gold, you'll get an additional 0.03 grams of gold for free by using the code mentioned earlier, BGDXKS. That's right. Go for it. Okay. What other topics do we want to discuss, Shahril? Another issue that has been circulating for a while. The issue of leasing 28 helicopters, and this issue has arisen most recently during the debates in this parliamentary session. This parliamentary session hasn't had much major news, KJ.

31:17 I don't know if KJ agrees or not. There are a few issues, but not many talking points like perhaps previous sessions. But one that blew up a bit was when the opposition leader himself raised the issue of leasing 28 helicopters awarded to Weststar. Perhaps KJ can provide an explanation or your perspective, and we can discuss it. Yes, so as background and a simple explanation, or explainer. The current government needs helicopters. Many of our helicopters are obsolete and insufficient. And we need helicopters not just for the military but for various agencies. It's not just the Royal Malaysian Air Force, TUDM, that uses helicopters

32:06 but also the Royal Malaysian Navy, TLDM. The Royal Malaysian Police, PDRM, also uses helicopters. The Malaysian Maritime Enforcement Agency, APMM, uses them too. The Malaysian Fire and Rescue Department also uses helicopters. So it's a multi-agency requirement. And usually, in the past, it's not that we've never leased before, but typically, we purchase helicopters. And each agency would buy helicopters, whether through Eurocopter or Leonardo, these two companies, or Sikorsky. These are some of the companies I mentioned earlier. Leonardo was formerly known as AgustaWestland. So these are some of the preferred brands that have been purchased by government agencies

32:52 in Malaysia as well as in other countries. So in this latest deal or agreement that has been implemented by the Public-Private Partnership Unit (UKAS). So, within the government, if you want to do privatization, privatization, leasing, or rentals, it has to go through an agency called UKAS which is located within the Prime Minister's Department. So UKAS has decided that the government will lease 28 helicopters for 15 years. 28 helicopters for 15 years, and the total leasing agreement

33:38 is RM16.5 billion. A lot. So if we divide the total by the number of helicopters, it means that one helicopter costs RM590 million per unit. Per unit. That's the unit cost of the helicopter. And these helicopters will be distributed to several agencies. So 12 to the TUDM, our air force, 2 to our navy, 7 to the police and others. The APMM will also get some, and the fire department too. So currently, this helicopter deal or agreement has been made with Weststar Aviation Services Sdn Bhd, or Weststar.

34:28 And Weststar will manage, will purchase 28 helicopters, and lease them back to the government. There are already several agreements with companies, including Weststar. For example, Weststar has already provided 4 helicopters to the TUDM under a contract 3 years ago. And these helicopters are currently being flown from the TUDM base, the TUDM airbase in Butterworth, Penang. And I understand that it has an asset readiness rate of 90%. Meaning, at any one time, only 10% of the assets are not flyable. And Weststar also leases not just to the government but Petronas as well,

35:17 rents many helicopters from Weststar to transport crew to and from oil platforms. So now, the question being raised is whether this cost is reasonable or not. Because there are several criticisms, including from the opposition and others, saying that the established cost is too high. Because if we work it out, as I did earlier, a cost of almost over 500 million per helicopter is quite high compared to the cost of buying just one helicopter. And some have made calculations based on previous years' procurements

36:06 where we purchased the EC 725 Eurocopter Cougar, and the calculations show that the cost, including maintenance, is lower than the cost offered by Weststar. But to be fair to this deal, Shahril, there are a few things I've noticed myself, that this isn't us buying helicopters, so we can't make an apples-to-apples comparison. We can't compare Weststar's leasing price with the unit price if we were to buy from... But maybe that's the point. Why are we choosing to lease instead of buy? So, you can't compare apples to apples, but why are we not taking the apple? Why are we taking the orange?

36:51 Because of the plug-ins, because of the add-ons. Yes, that's what I wanted to mention because if we buy one helicopter unit at a price much lower than the unit price under this leasing agreement, that doesn't include spare parts, maintenance, insurance, everything. So this is what we're trying to understand, whether these add-ons are reasonable to justify the price paid by the government through this lease. For example, yes, firstly, maintenance costs. Everything is covered by Weststar for 15 years. So no maintenance is needed. Secondly, spare parts costs.

37:37 So this covers all procurement of spare parts. Including system subscription costs, because these helicopters aren't just physical parts; it's also in terms of their systems, in terms of software subscriptions, and so on. And what I see as quite significant, the commitment given by Weststar is the readiness level. Weststar guarantees 85% serviceability for all helicopters at all times. That means 85% of the assets are flying, and nothing less than that. Is that particularly high by your standards? That's quite high. In a situation where we buy and hold the assets? The serviceability will be low because your budget to have spare parts

38:23 on standby will be much lower. So usually, serviceability will be lower than 60% due to lack of funds, lack of budget for spare parts, no delivery schedule for spare parts, and so on. So they're giving a guarantee of 85%, not just that, if they can't maintain 85% readiness, it will result in fines of almost RM80,000 per helicopter, as per standard leasing practices. And it also includes a subscription-based program with Leonardo known as the "power by the hour" cost.

39:08 Meaning, with this program subscribed to with Leonardo, Leonardo is the helicopter manufacturer, Leonardo must guarantee spare parts delivery within 72 hours. So any spare parts, if any repairs are needed, Leonardo must send those spare parts to Weststar within 72 hours. The normal serviceability rate of, as I said, the Air Force right now is about 60%. That means 6 out of 10 helicopters are operational at any one time. So what Weststar is saying is that almost 9 helicopters will be operational at any one time.

39:55 Apart from that, there is also a commitment from Weststar to pay so that pilots who need to convert their rating from other helicopter types to this Leonardo type can be done and covered by Weststar themselves. And they will cover the training costs for these pilots for 15 years. And the last two things I need to highlight so that our listeners know that these are the add-ons. Besides that, usually, if the government buys assets like these helicopters, nobody will insure them because these are for tactical purposes. So normally, government-purchased helicopters or jet planes are not insured.

40:41 This one, because Weststar owns the assets, they are insured, and the premiums are borne by Weststar. And the last thing I want to touch on is Weststar's commitment to ensure that there's a regional MRO, Maintenance, Repair, and Overhaul Training Centre for Leonardo Helicopters built in Malaysia within six years. So those are the add-ons. So, KJ has explained, if we take a positive perspective, that's how we understand why leasing is a better option than buying. But the issue, KJ, is what you've explained are the conceptual arguments. There aren't clear figures to compare

41:28 apples and oranges. And this is where I think we need to discuss, firstly, what KJ explained might make listeners think it's like renting a car versus buying one. If you rent a car, there's the convenience of repairs, all maintenance is covered by the rental company. But many would still argue it's better to buy a car because you know the total maintenance cost, how to take care of it, and you're willing to spend because it's your car. Compared to renting, perhaps the maintenance could be, or intentionally made, excessive.

42:15 That's something we need to compare. Okay, that's a simple example to compare renting and buying. But the issue in this context, KJ, I think is when we read arguments, for example, from Opposition Leader Dato' Seri Hamzah Zainudin, he gave the example that Poland bought 32 AW149 helicopters. Perhaps, KJ, you know more about that particular brand of helicopter because it's 32 helicopters for approximately $2 billion, around RM9 billion. Which is more helicopters than our 28, and RM9 billion is less than the RM16.5 billion we have to pay for the lease. That difference, that delta, is quite significant if we compare one-to-one. What KJ mentioned earlier are add-ons that certainly have value.

43:04 What is that value? I think the government needs to be transparent about that. Because, KJ, with the 5G issue, for instance, they questioned everything. Was it right that Ericsson got it? Was the bidding competitive or not? So, one is, what's the quantitative comparison you can explain, whether to the Public Accounts Committee or the public, for us to understand why you chose this? Secondly, the process itself. Like I mentioned the 5G issue, right? PMX said there was an RFP, meaning it wasn't a direct award. Not a direct negotiation with Weststar. Even so, the competitive bidding process or the RFP needs to be clarified. What are the arguments for setting specific conditions?

43:51 Because, without referring specifically to this case, generally, KJ, you can confirm, right? An RFP can be structured so that only one company clearly qualifies. I'm not saying it happened here. I can't confirm or deny that. Sometimes that happens. But my point is, I'm not saying it happened here. Maybe it didn't. But again, when we talked about 5G, many questioned whether the process was open and competitive. Do the same here because the amount here is big. RM16.5 billion is not small. And thirdly, this one is a bit delicate, a bit sensitive. It's already out there, and it's not just me saying it, but people and news reports have mentioned that PMX likes to talk about the ultra-rich, the ultra-rich, the ultra-rich.

44:41 But when this goes to a company and individual who might have merit but is also seen as close to PMX, who, as is well known, people say and it's also reported in the media, provided a helicopter to PMX during the 2022 election campaign. What do you expect people to think? Of course, people will wonder. So again, I'm not saying anything is wrong here. But it looks funny. And when it looks funny, it's even more important to explain the process transparently. It's even more important to explain the comparison, why this is better than buying. So I think that's where again the communication has to be more aggressive and not just dismiss any questions that arise.

45:29 Because these are questions I think are fair to raise. I think the points raised by Shahril are fair. And need further clarification. I understand this issue will be brought to the Public Accounts Committee for further clarification. But maybe I have a few responses. I'm not trying to answer on behalf of the government. But what I think should be done. Firstly, let me take the sensitive point at the end. What I know about that is Weststar, as a company, constantly leases its helicopters or aircraft to corporations, corporate figures, politicians, and so on.

46:18 What I know is that they are equal opportunity lessors of helicopters. If we look at Weststar's helicopter flight manifests, I think you'll find quite a lot of our people there also. So, you know, I think Tan Sri Syed Azman is a friend to everyone. I mean, he's a good businessman. But I think that point is easy to answer. But yes, we should be honest about it. And say that many politicians have used Weststar helicopters or aircraft. That's fine. One. Secondly, I think the point regarding the process and the point regarding the details is very important.

47:05 And I agree with Shahril, what the government should answer, the Implementation Coordination Unit (UKAS), Prime Minister's Department (JPM). I'm not sure which minister answers for UKAS in Parliament if it's not the Prime Minister himself. Madi, do you know who answers for UKAS? Okay, whoever answers for UKAS, they have to, as Shahril said, if there's an example of purchasing the same helicopters from Leonardo, from another country, at a specific price, compared to the price paid by the government through this lease through Weststar. Then, the government needs to explain that the delta, or the price difference, is due to maintenance,

47:53 estimated at X billion. Spare parts maintenance is X billion. It's based on assumptions. I don't think they can precisely say this is the amount for spare parts. But, generally speaking, industry-wide, wear and tear, this is what it would be. That's what we want. You've been in the corporate sector before. Industry-wide assumption of wear and tear, over 15 years, this is how much it will cost. And that's why it comes up to this amount. Serviceability guarantee, if it's 85% serviceability, what is the dollar value? How many spare parts do you have to have in your inventory? How many technicians do you have? There's a certain ratio, Shahril, for technicians per helicopter. That has to be on the books at any one time. Meaning, for one helicopter, there must be a technician

48:42 available at a specific ratio. So, they need to show that for a certain number of helicopters, the 28 they bought, times how many technicians or engineers must be available at any given time. I think that's what we want, right? And I like to think this has already been done. So if not, you have to do it now. This, when you make this decision, of course, a comparison has been made. I like to think so. So, actually, it's not new work. Existing work, just figure out what can be made public. Including things like insurance premiums. That's already known. So, you can talk about that. And maybe the company doesn't want to disclose its margin, that's fine. But, I think the people and also the KS listeners and viewers,

49:28 we understand that a reasonable margin is okay. If that's the case, that's business, right? It's business. So, I think this, we hope through clarification, you know that, yes, there are add-ons. But, what Shahril mentioned earlier, we hope those add-ons or additional services that come from Weststar in this lease agreement can be further explained. So that the people understand, are comfortable and accept the terms made by the government. Right. Yeah? Another topic that has also been going on for a long time, KJ. Yes. Guidelines for Muslims. Yeah. Guidelines for what? Guidelines on how to attend events

50:18 at non-Muslim houses of worship. Yeah. So this issue has come up. It might be related to when the Honourable Minister Nga Kor Ming raised the issue last December during Christmas and we discussed it then. So, one of the responses that emerged was from the Minister in the Prime Minister's Department, Dato' Dr. Mohd Na'im Mokhtar, informing that JAKIM is finalizing specific guidelines related to Muslim involvement in celebrations and ceremonies and funeral rites of non-Muslims, as well as visits and organization of events

51:03 at non-Muslim houses of worship. It's lengthy, that guideline. That's what was mentioned a week or two ago. There were many responses to that proposal by the Prime Minister's Department, and to fast forward, many have read that, long story short, PMX and the Cabinet agreed that JAKIM can advise Muslims, but it's not policy, so the guidelines themselves are probably less impactful or less relevant now. This is probably one way to basically say what the Religious Affairs Minister merely suggested. It seems the Cabinet didn't fully agree but still allows JAKIM to give advice. To me, it's like JAKIM could always give advice. So basically, if they wanted to make it policy, it's not happening.

51:52 KJ, when we comment on issues like this, it becomes a political identity issue, a question of whether our faith is strong enough and so on. So in my view, this is one of the realities of bureaucratizing religion in a country like Malaysia. Personally, I prefer and am closer to the view that I trust Muslims to listen to advice, read advice, and simply go to a house of worship. Following advice from religious figures regarding what we can and cannot do at that location is sufficient for me. I want to touch on this issue from a slightly different angle.

52:43 Firstly, regarding the need to raise this issue. Because I think what can be answered, this came from a parliamentary question. A parliamentary question posed to Senator Dato' Dr. Mohd Na'im Mokhtar, the Minister in the Prime Minister's Department (Religious Affairs), answering an oral question in the Dewan Rakyat, and he said JAKIM is finalizing specific guidelines. So when he answered that, of course, people who don't know anything about the existing guidelines would react strongly.

53:28 This issue would blow up, and I'm saddened because it blew up with, as usual, a lack of empathy from all sides. If I were the minister that day and asked this oral question, I would refer to a decision of the Fatwa Committee of the National Council for Islamic Religious Affairs on April 12th, 2005, which are guidelines for Muslims participating in celebrations of non-Muslim religions. They already exist. I would say there are already guidelines that have been

54:13 issued by the National Fatwa Council, and the criteria are as they have always been: the event doesn't involve practices that contradict Islamic beliefs, the usual things. And I'd say I'm referring to this; it's existed for 20 years. And we hope there's no confusion. Muslims can refer to these guidelines, which are not law but guidelines, and others can't say, "Oh, this is encroachment, this is trying to teach Muslims what to do." But as KJ mentioned, these aren't laws. When this issue arises, it seemingly becomes a policy that ... That's why, if I were him, I'd say guidelines already exist.

55:02 And these guidelines are issued by the National Fatwa Council, the highest fatwa council. So, there are guidelines; it's up to you to... And JAKIM, as the Religious Affairs Minister, is responsible for ensuring that people know about these guidelines. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. And you cannot say that just because the minister is telling people about the guidelines that they are somehow forcing them, that it somehow becomes policy, that it somehow becomes... This is muzakarah, this is an opinion. An opinion. And we hope, as a Muslim, you will take this opinion and follow the fatwa and these guidelines. So, to me, I think the minister, he's trying to...

55:53 Respond to the current political climate. He's saying, "Okay, these guidelines need to be updated." That's where I think it unnecessarily draws fire. Updating is one thing, KJ, but why are some people possibly uncomfortable? It's because they know existing guidelines exist. When he mentions it again, there's an assumption that it will become more than mere guidance, more like policy, approaching policy. That's why PMX himself had to respond that it's not policy. When PMX has to respond like that, it means he realizes that some people think it will become policy. And when it becomes policy, that's something else. Because that's encroachment to the point where the government tells you

56:39 what you can do, what you cannot do, where you can be, where you cannot be. I think that's where some people are uncomfortable. When rereading the minister's statement, I don't think he ever said that. So, it's more about how the response was framed in that direction. Because I'm trying to be fair to the ministers in the Prime Minister's Department. He's still referring to guidelines. But it became a snowball effect. It got bigger, bigger, bigger. And there are people who read his statement and basically put words in his mouth

57:25 to say that it is going to be policy. If we read his parliamentary answer, did he say it was policy? No, right? So, I feel he should have just referred to the existing guidelines. But he also became a victim of circumstance in this matter. That's my view anyway. But when PMX said it wouldn't be policy, some people asked why it wouldn't be. So, there's a constituency. There are those who would prefer it to be more formalized. For these guidelines to be more than guidelines, to become government policy or policy of the authorities.

58:11 And that's where the difference of opinion lies, perhaps, regarding what's appropriate for a government to do regarding these matters or what the limits are. So just so that we're accurate, Shahril. The last paragraph of the minister's answer, because this is an oral answer, so it's a scripted answer. These guidelines also complement the 2005 guidelines. So, there's a slight upgrade. And can still be used as guidance. Anything in the old guidelines that contradicts the new ones, then the old guidelines won't apply because there are some updated things. But he mentioned it can be used as guidance.

58:59 So, I mean, I have to feel a bit for him. So I understand the criticisms raised by Shahril and others. The encroachment, the issue of it seemingly being policy and instructions and restrictions and so on. But when I read his statement, it's not like that. It was never meant like that. No. Okay, yeah. In terms of the Religious Affairs Minister himself, he might be a victim of circumstance. But the discussion and debate about whether it needs to be more than just guidelines and become something more specific, it does exist in the background, and that's where... ...the issues that we're perhaps trying to comment on and discuss without being too specific.

59:46 But there's also this, Shahril, I mean, just one last thing about this issue. Some people believe, and I'm not comfortable with this, putting aside the policy and all that, that this becomes a directive, a question of directives from the religious bureaucracy. But some also say there's no need for guidelines at all. That Muslims know what to do. I don't feel comfortable with that view because, yes, maybe most of us know, if we go, for example, to a wedding, of a friend of a different faith, what we can do, what we can't do in the church, if they're singing hymns and stuff like that, don't join in, and all that. But is it wrong to have guidelines so that people, so it's clear?

1:00:34 I think, I feel this issue is about knowledge, and those of us who lack it must constantly seek it. That's the question. Guidelines provide knowledge too. Yes, true, but my point, KJ, is when people criticize why the government needs to become... that is also an argument because we have fellow Muslims living in other countries without religious bureaucracies. Is their faith weaker? Is their knowledge lacking? No. They have channels to learn about what they should do. But the decision, the sin, the reward, that's theirs to bear. So, that's what I feel people... sometimes when we question or discuss these matters, people are too quick to say if you question this then you don't think Islam is important. No. My point is, what is the right and proper role of government, of the state? Because in many places, without naming any countries, KJ,

1:01:23 perhaps when we talk about Trump, we'll mention certain countries where a government can control religious institutions. And that's where the slippery slope is. And it leads to things far from true religion. So this is a, you know, I suppose, more philosophical question about what, how do you use the state? Agree. The point you're trying to make is that in other countries where there are no religious bureaucracies, there are ways to disseminate that knowledge. But I suppose the counter there is that we are a country where we already have a religious bureaucracy, so what do you expect JAKIM to do? They have to do this. This is JAKIM's job.

1:02:09 I have no problem with the Fatwa Council and everything that explains and provides guidelines. That's a source we adhere to. But there is a question of how far that goes. That's all. So, I think we can conclude by saying that perhaps the answer can be given in a way that refers more to existing guidelines, saying this isn't new, but at the same time, I think the Religious Affairs Minister himself has become a victim of circumstance where some meanings have been imputed to his statement that I don't think were his intentions. Yes, I understand. I accept that. Okay, we'll take a short break and be back after this.

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1:06:47 Very good. Alright. Okay, last segment, KJ. Let's go international, especially regarding Trump, whom we made notes here concerning Gaza and the takeover of Gaza which we will definitely discuss. But actually, discussing anything about Trump isn't an issue. There are too many things he's done in just the first few weeks of his presidency, from wanting to fire US federal employees, aligning with Elon Musk and also DOGE, which we discussed in the Kena Soal episode recently, imposing high tariffs on countries that should be his friends: Canada, to a lesser extent I suppose Mexico, The European Union also seems ready for another round of tariffs.

1:07:34 Most recently, steel and aluminum. Steel and aluminum, 25%. What else did he do? He said he wants to seize people's land. Before he wanted to seize Gaza, he wanted to take Greenland first. Then he wanted to trade the Panama Canal. What else? He's challenging the authority of the Supreme Court of the United States, which has already issued many statements and decisions to stop or overturn his executive orders. The Executive Orders of the President of the United States, perhaps before this, no one would dispute that the courts can still say no if the orders are considered to be contrary to the US Constitution. But there are rumors that he might not even follow

1:08:22 what the federal court, or rather what the Supreme Court says. What else? He created a meme coin to allow people to give money to an entity that he profited from due to his position as president, so profiting from his position. And of course, what we probably want to discuss at greater length is ethnic cleansing in Gaza. And today, KJ, he has said that if Israeli hostages are not released by Hamas as promised, and Hamas has already signaled that they are halting the process for a while due to Israel itself violating the conditions. But for Trump, if you don't release the Israeli hostages, then all hell will break loose.

1:09:07 So much is happening. Every day, there's a new boundary he crosses. I don't know, KJ. I feel like sometimes our human civilization... we go through history, and there's a saying, right? Those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it. But I wonder... I was having a conversation yesterday... Maybe it's not that people don't learn from history, but that the people who learned it have already died. So, if we look at the architecture of the world that existed after the Second World War, where there's more of a spirit of cooperation, to mobilize war, to ensure there are rules, bails, order, even if there's hypocrisy along the way. But this time, we have a US President who basically thinks all of that is just stuff we can put aside. And I don't know, this world is going to be in a very brutish period

1:09:55 for the years to come. It also feels to me like we are working through a modern tributary system where he wants people to come and kneel before him, give to him because he is the emperor at this time. And whoever doesn't do that, he will be punished. Well, I think the biggest question is still unanswered but is being answered every day we hear statements and actions from Trump in the United States, is whether he's serious about implementing 100% of what he says. That we still don't know, Shahril.

1:10:41 Because in terms of tariffs, he's already started. He's started, but if I'm not mistaken, he gave a postponement to Canada and Mexico for a month, if I'm not mistaken. On Greenland, on Panama, a lot of barking but no biting yet. So, a lot of people, many analysts still believe that there are some things he will do and some things, as mentioned by Trump supporters, are tactics for negotiation. Negotiating tactics. Meaning, if you don't do this, I'll threaten you with a very, very high price.

1:11:27 A very, very high price. So, coming back to Shahril's view that this negotiating tactic is indeed part of a tributary system. A system where people will kneel before him and say, "Don't impose tariffs on me, I'll give you whatever you want." So, the full brunt, the full impact of what Trump is saying we haven't felt yet, and we don't know if we will feel it fully because we don't know how far he's gonna go. And this brings us to the issue I think we want to discuss further, which is Trump's proposal for the United States to take over and redevelop Gaza.

1:12:16 And this is a proposal that was made during the visit of Benjamin Netanyahu, Prime Minister of the Zionist state of Israel, to Washington D.C. And in the press conference, Trump basically spontaneously, because I saw Netanyahu was also quite surprised by the proposal. He said that he proposed that the United States take over Gaza and develop Gaza as a Riviera of the Middle East, as a resort, maybe like the resorts developed by Trump

1:13:01 as a real estate developer, and he proposed that the 2 million Palestinians living in Gaza, who are returning to their land and homes that have been destroyed by Israel, could go to other countries, including Jordan, Egypt, and he didn't say who, but better new homes would be built for these Palestinians, and job opportunities would be available for these Palestinians, and they just need to leave Gaza, their own land, their homeland, and the US will develop Gaza, and the people of the world will live in Gaza,

1:13:50 and Gaza will become the playground of the global rich and famous, Dubai, basically. Well, something like that, but I don't know, Shahril, because Trump's logic, he says we'll find better homes for you, even if you return now, there's nothing in Gaza, everything has been destroyed, and we'll find a better place for you. One, Trump, it's as if he doesn't understand the value of a homeland for people, because most sane people, Shahril, would prefer to go to their own homeland rather than become a refugee who doesn't know who will build their house,

1:14:36 doesn't know who will give them job opportunities, and just accepts the offer completely. Secondly, Trump is also blind to history, as Shahril said, those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it. He's blind to the history that his proposal is causing trauma, historical trauma, a huge historical trauma for the Palestinian people. In 1948, Palestinians were expelled from Palestine, from the West Bank and from Gaza at that time. I think less than a million Palestinians were expelled to create the state of Israel at that time. What is known as the Nakba, expelled, driven out

1:15:22 from their homes, from their land, from their homeland, and to this day they are refugees living in refugee camps, whether in Jordan, in Egypt, and so on, growing up in refugee camps. And Trump never considered that this historical trauma will repeat itself. And the Palestinians in Gaza who hear this offer, they won't think that there's going to be a shining condominium being built for me in Beirut or in Sharm El-Sheikh or in Cairo, but I'm going to end up in a dingy refugee camp in the Beqaa Valley in Lebanon, because that's what happened.

1:16:07 And Trump has said that there is no right of return, no right of return. If you leave, once you're out, you're out. So it's the same with the Palestinian refugees today. They demand a right of return that is denied under all agreements. They cannot return to their land and original homesites. I read a commentary that said if you want to make Palestine or Gaza into whatever, a Riviera or anything, if it belongs to Palestine, it can be discussed. But this is expelling them to create a project that Palestinians never even said they wanted. So this is something that is definitely rejected by the people of Gaza

1:16:56 and, I think, by rational people regarding what are the rights of a person, of a group that has long suffered under a regime that does not grant them independence. The question perhaps is, can KJ and we discuss, does KJ think this will happen? What will actually happen? To say we think he will succeed in expelling all the people of Gaza, I don't think that will happen on its own. So could something less drastic than that, but still bad for the people of Gaza, also occur? For example, let's say an occupation involving the United States itself,

1:17:42 which will go against what Trump said before, because he didn't want, you know, he wanted to end wars and he didn't want America to be part of wars, but he also contradicts himself because he said the US presence is... he didn't rule out the possibility of US forces and military involvement. That's one option that might be less drastic than expulsion, but puts more pressure on Gaza. Secondly, it seems like there's... I'm worried there's a situation where he becomes the first US President to reject the two-state solution, meaning, in other words, rejecting the right of Palestinians to have a state. All this time, even though other US Presidents haven't helped, at least at the stated policy level,

1:18:28 that was the desired outcome. But here, I wouldn't be surprised if he reaches a point where he says no need, don't need, Palestinians don't need a state. They can go to Egypt, they can go elsewhere. That will challenge whether countries allied with the United States will dare to speak up and say they disagree. In this matter as well, number three, besides those two things, is what is the response from surrounding Arab countries, where all this time there has been suspicion that they are not actually fully in solidarity with Palestine. If it reaches a point where they are willing to normalize relations with Israel

1:19:15 even though there is no independence for Palestine, then I think it's even more clear and exposed that the nationalist agendas of certain countries outweigh the agenda of the unity of Muslims or humanity. Regarding that issue, Shahril, I agree. But, let's take two cases. Let's look at Saudi Arabia and Jordan. They're not just looking at their national interests. What they can get from the United States in terms of security guarantees, in terms of contributions, investments, or aid, and so on.

1:20:03 But, if I'm King Abdullah or Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, I'm also going to think about the survival of my royal house. Because if I take action that's vastly different from the sentiment in our respective countries, don't assume that the Hashemite kingdom, monarchy, or the House of Saud cannot crumble if they are out of sync with the people. So, that's why I see, for example, King Abdullah met with Trump today or yesterday. He said that Jordan cannot accept these refugees.

1:20:51 If Gaza is taken over by the United States and Jordan is expected to take a million from Gaza, he said no. But Trump pushed back and said he will convince King Abdullah. But King Abdullah is mindful of the fact that, firstly, if he agrees to accept, he agrees to US policy. And secondly, there will be consequences for the people already in Jordan. Whether Jordanians themselves or Palestinian refugees in Jordan. Jordan's majority is already Palestinian refugees. Not original Jordanians. So, if he agrees and he can't push back against his ally here, the United States, then the Hashemite monarchy is in trouble. Yes, so that's basically the Sami Hamdi position. Basically, if you watch Sami Hamdi, he always gives an optimistic view

1:21:37 that the Muslim people in Arab countries themselves will force their leaders and rulers

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