Did The Traitors ‘Seer’ Twist Ruin The Final?

0:00 hello and welcome to this episode of the rest is entertainment with me Marina Hyde and me Richard Osman hello Marina hello Richard how are you yeah I'm all right we we've got some interesting things to talk about this week our first item I'm really really looking forward to um how has your week been it's been super I don't know if you watch one of the worst TV spectacles by the way that I've ever seen on TV just so low rent and crap presidential inauguration I didn't but I tell you there was one star in it my girl Lauren Sanchez did you see my girl she was the best thing in it everybody saw Lauren and if you didn't know who she was before last week you do now so yes I mean we picked her as a star early but we did and you know talking of which friend of the podcast there's going to be a new star in the firmament yeah uh and we're going to be talking about him we're going to talk about how a celebrity is born and uh

0:47 someone who's attempting to thrust his way into the uh into the world of celebrity is the person we are talking about first we will get to that we are going to talk about as our last item we're going to talk about traitors so if you have seen it great you watch it if you've not seen it just avoid the last little bit of the podcast until you have turn off your set at that point exactly look away now Look Away with your ears now and we are also talking about we're talking about we're updating we talked to you a bit about this before Christmas the Blake Lively and Justin Balon lawsuit which is mushrooming I it is certainly quite quite out of control now all sorts of other players are coming in and it's going to remain a sort of developing story so we're going to update you where we are at with that particular Obsession of mine and and many others now we begin every now and

1:32 again astronomers are lucky enough with high powerered telescopes to see the birth of a star it tells them a great deal about the uh the world that they live in and we're going to talk about uh the birth of a star who are we going to talk about and why yeah if you've been feeling a disturbance in the fabric of the news Continuum the star that is trying to be born is I don't know if you're familiar with a guy called James Watt now he is Brew dog's co-founder not the steam engine guy not the steam engine guy now and you might be wondering ing at the moment as I am why is this guy being beamed into my Consciousness like three times a week okay I it is impossible to have a January dry of this guy okay I've seen in interviews controversial Instagram posts LinkedIn post he's a real LinkedIn Legend this guy let me tell you I don't understand LinkedIn can we do at some

2:18 point we need to do a massive just repast on LinkedIn if you you heard of a media blitz this is more of a media blitz Creek okay James WT and I assume his publicist wish to have full spectrum dominance of the news by mid-February and yeah I'm I'm buying into that every time I look anywhere he is there in a sort of shacket uh talking about business or something anyway but most recently announcing that he was launching a new TV show with the biggest prize in British TV history2 million P it's called House of unicorns and I'm actually thinking why hasn't he called it James Watts's House of unicorns because yeah correct me if I'm wrong Richard but in a house of title yes should you not have your own name your own name in it by Unicorns I'm guessing he is talking about entrepreneurs

3:05 building billion pound businesses rather than actual it's a startup unicorn is a startup company that is valued at over a billion and as I say this is a TV show in which he is attempting supposedly to find I have to say it's a TV show supposedly but we'll come to that in a minute in which he's attempting to find the next unicorn um and we will dig into the realities and unrealities of that at the moment but who is James Watts now can I give a little primer on him oh my God it I tell you who's loving this James Watt okay well let's see if he does by the end he's he was born to a millionaire was he yeah yeah he this is a real richest to richest story say someone like Philip green who well again they cultivate the air of like it's you know this of self yeah yeah but in fact they it's a richest to richest story story anyway the father was a fisherman

3:51 but it was a millionaire and um by the way a huge amount of James watt's identity and we'll come to this later is it's almost like it's a form of identity politics he talks about fisherman and being a fisherman so much every time he wants to H someone for brew dog he says I just think what would you be like standing next to me on a some some I mean I'm paraphrasing his quote here in a North Atlantic storm and it's like is this just someone you're going to pay like minimum wage to work in a Las Vegas bar because I don't it's really going to come up but anyway or less than minimum W yeah and it turns out his dad is camp in Bird's ey yeah it SS anyway but he starts Brew dog with a friend of his it does very very well they do a t and a huge amount of how it does and Brew dog they make all you Elvis juice Punk IPA all those sort of very colorful branded

4:36 beers I think it's the sth biggest Brewery in the UK which by the way we're going to be talking a lot about this guy that is an achievement in itself you there's plenty of people born to millionaires who set up companies who who have not done what they've done him and him and this guy Martin dicki who who who was a he met when he was doing a brewing degree so it's an extraordinary Empire they are built in one way yeah and they did it they did they sent beer to the Kremlin they did you know they talk there's a lot of it as a philosophy you know and it's a sort of punk philosophy yeah I think you know there's all these Expressions that he says things like generic beer is made by pimps and thieves okay I mean you know have you ever seen um you know um alist green who does amazing uh um videos on the internet he does he does an amazing

5:22 uh kind of punk beer series of commercials which are very very very funny oh I need to see that I and anyone who doesn't follow Alis green on on any of the social media channels must do immediately he's very funny but anyway he absolutely nailed James Watt well James wat also you know he he in that era of the real sort of the the pump of TED Talks he does a lot of TED Talks you know nobody's more important than your work nothing in your business is more important to you than your Workforce all that sort of stuff right and yet Richard yeah he is dogged by accusations that he runs a toxic workplace people yeah so 300 staff that is quite a lot signed a saying that it was a toxic culture the at the company of brewog um and that it was all his fault then last year 15 staff spoke to a BBC disclosures program

6:09 saying that they had to try and get away quickly at the end of their shift all sorts of things he says all of this is untrue listen he stepped back from being Brew dog CEO um although he is now listen listed as its captain on LinkedIn as I say identity businessman and fisherman he's one of those people who's constantly sort of posting things like you know never sleeps or anything he ever says almost could be the sort of thing that The Rock would say after a workout not so long ago a few weeks ago he said he hit the headlines he said that you know Britain's a real workshy culture um one of the most workshy workforces in the in the in the world and he said I also said I think the whole concept of work life balance is invented by people who hate the work that they do if you love what you do you don't need work life balance you need

6:56 work life integration I think this should be a basic rule cuz lot of multi- multi-millionaire business people also have this view that people should work much harder and I think this if you earn more than a 100 times your average employees wage they should be allowed to do 10 times less work than you they're still they're still doing 10 times more work for the money but which one and a half hours in the day and that means if they if you're doing 18 hours work a day then they can do one and a half hours work a day it's such rubbish and it's such a fundamentalist Mis understanding of how economies work that they that for in order for there to be people like him there don't need to be millions of people toiling away including under in brogg for less than the living wage which he once committed to and then Rod back for why should people in the gig economy doing often very mean and very

7:42 difficult and you know jobs on very long hours contracts why should they love their work this is such a load of complete [ __ ] okay we all know this but they need to exist in order to surface unicorns like James WT okay so now thus far this sounds like an episode of the rest is money the reason it's interesting to us is you were talking about his his his what what he describes himself as and he describes himself as businessman investor television personality okay that's self-described businessman investor television personality now House of unicorn is interesting we'll go on to talk about it but you can anyone who knows anything about this uh world would have worked out that sounds a little bit like Dragon's Den he's got a huge chip about drag of course you did and for two reasons yeah and this is this tells you

8:27 everything you need to know about this guy I think firstly him and Martin Dicky when Brew dog was um quite young tried to go on Dragon's Den to you know essentially as a contestant publicity um you know opportunity um and they were turned down okay so James wat sort of keeps that with him you know come on guys we got we had a pretty good business here it's interesting they didn't want to know because it's beer James and it's the BBC just listen I don't want to be the GU of Teddy that he then when he's made his millions says well you turned me down did you see how see how you like turning me down when I say I want to be an investor on Dragon's Den and they turned him down again so he's been turned down twice by Dragon's Den Brew dog has his own television channel okay if you go on the Brew dog website it makes loads and loads of TV so him and Martin in this case I will

9:13 call it content Don't Ed don't edify it by calling it television it makes some content him and Martin Dicky did a series for Esquire in the US called The Brew dog show where they just go to different cities and they brew a beer Esquire canceled the show which is weird because you would have think it been must have been a huge hit cuz James Watt is compelling anyway they decided to make this show themselves and I you do not have to do this but listen it's worth it I watched the first five minutes of of the of the first one they in Columbus Ohio him and Martin Dicky and they literally Begin by saying so the network canceled our show um what do you do in that situation to what we did started our own network so they started their own because because their show got

9:59 in network are they it's literally their website and this show could not more want to be Top Gear if they literally were wearing Jeremy Clarkson masks it's unbel I'm amazed they didn't call it Top beer they him and Martin it was right there guys well that if that tells story top of the Hops uh they're walking across this bridge come up with three better titles and they're going yeah so we're in Columbus Ohio we're going to make some beer yeah no n ns are too scared to uh make our show so it's just the two of us and he goes wait a minute doesn't John Edwards live in Columbus ring him hi is that John Edwards hi John yeah it's James Watt here we're going to make some beer in Columbus yeah should we do that oh that's interesting it's the Buckeye state that's nuts is it maybe we can make a beer with some nuts okay puts down the phone Martin de then

10:46 takes his phone throws it into the river and he goes Martin you thrown my phone into the river I mean oh my gosh the interesting thing of watching Top Gear and not noticing that the key to Top Gear is it's brilliantly produced yeah like every single shot is like ridiculously filmed and like beautifully put together just thinking that you and your friend can he can just throw your phone in the river anyway it's one of the most excruciating 5 minutes of television I've ever watched so please and that means something by the way watch I have watched and made an awful lot of excruciating television so listen they made the show it was canceled they decided to make their own show that tells you all you need to know but he has he has further Ambitions in this are it's not his only entertainment property cuz last week he announced that he said there was a he had a uh there's a

11:31 screenplay being a Hollywood screenplay being developed underdogs the rise of Brew dog now wow as a cinematic project this has all the likelihood of coming to screen as I remember something I remember do you remember when Le leester won the title and every was like Hollywood is making a movie about Jamie vardy is it is that what Hollywood's doing is it has anyone seen this has anyone have we have we got a even you what perhaps they filmed it but it's all on Rebecca Bard's agent phone down in the north SE phone that went into the water he also gave an interview last week um in which he talked about this TV show which has been quite uncritically received as a thing that is definitely happening and James wat said I've always been so disillusioned and frankly fed up with the tired format of reality TV business shows relying on worn out tropes and stale stereotypes of

12:16 entrepreneurs for comedy value well past their s by date okay he says that he doesn't like that sort of Television he doesn't like the way that it's played for uh the enter apprentice and Dragon Z are played for ENT mate your mate just threw your phone into the river yeah he said that the cost is at times they make the entrepreneur the founder seem a bit deluded and a bit crazy whereas I think it's these Founders we need to be be in and heing they're creating jobs that's what the viewers are saying as well please show more respect to the founders please show more respect to the founders we don't want an entertaining show here's a business he doesn't understand even though it's entire identity apart from fisherman is businessman you don't understand the entertainment business sorry I'm going to break it to you anyway he wants to do the show and he says he's doing the show called House of

13:02 unicorns now I've have looked into this a little bit more it is as yet not with a a UK broadcaster or streaming platform Richard and he says he's going to contestants are going to fight for2 million pounds he's going to give one million and then the viewers will give the other Million by investing in small increments where do I sign up well you laugh but actually our producer Neil has is one of the original I believe equity for punks investor investors in Brew dog he say he has to you know that's how the start and then when private Equity came in and sort of bought out the whole company all these people ordinary people who had got involved in equity for punks were bit like all right that leaves a little bit of a bad taste yeah it's equity for punks became Equity from two guys who went to Eaton whisper TV are going to make this I know whisper well

13:48 they they've they're going to do various things I think they've got a Wheel of Fortune with gra Norton so you know it could happen they do lots of sports as well yeah they do lots of sports they're a proper company yeah what he's got is he's got um a promotional thing at the moment so it's interesting how people say you know I've got a TV show but it's like you haven't actually got it's not got green it's not even got commissioned by anybody yet yes I was going to say if you're a whisper TV or any TV company you've got 30 shows that you're punting out there at any given time of which two will get made so is you know obviously if James W comes and says we'll make this you think yeah I'm sure we can put together a Sizzle reel so it's yeah it's not going be whisper or not a commissioner as I say you have to be quite bad though not if you're going to give away 22 million P for people to say yeah you know what still you're right we won't make this so he has got a lot of promotional photos now I have seen him

14:34 in a shacket on a unicorn in a number of places so I had a look and I thought oh there he is on Westminster brid is this Ai No here he is on the Millennium Bridge it's okay and then suddenly I found another picture of him on a Scottish Road and I thought I'm sorry if you hire a unicorn for a day sorry hiring a unicorn for a day an agency that hires unicorns yeah is that something yeah of course hold on a minute I would invest if you hire un cor for a day you can go to a couple of London Bridges foul a few some South Bank Pavements but you cannot get all the way up to Scotland so I thought hang on where's this other picture of him in the Unicorn come from now I have discovered that he and then there's one of him outside of Brewery it's not an actual unicorn it's a white horse with a thing staple to it I it's not staple I

15:19 don't want to say that sorry it's not been Staples all of all the legal ises I tell you what this unicorn he's done more photos than almost James W I had a look there's a YouTube trailer and I think how on a second this YouTube trailer is uploaded in March 2023 and aboard the Unicorn once more is James Watt saying this is my $5 million search for the next billion doll company this thing has like 11 likes and two comments really hard to do well done finding that so people obviously did apply to this thing but he did it all like off air and it hasn't it's obviously made absolutely no impact on what I'm afraid we're obliged to call the discourse it's made no impact on it at all and so he's trying to do the same

16:05 thing again and but I guess that was an American thing because he's he talking about dollar things that was called the next unicorn okay so he's now on to House of unicorn the next unicorn is a better title yeah well I mean you know you're already giving him consultancy work for free here I think that's that's how he likes his consultancy work and we should say that he's also engaged to Georgia tofo from Maiden Chelsea yeah I mean she's as a sort of source of charm she'd rather Pass Me By cuz I didn't watch that I'm a celebrity well she she must have been quite Charming if she'd won that yeah she was she was listen she was very like up with in that they a celebrity couple now they're celebrity business people that Mogul is the the permanent identity so they're constantly like working really hard and you know doing their businesses which seems to just involve like making lots and lots of social media posts yeah the question

16:50 I suppose we're asking is can can he force himself can this star force him Force itself to be born can he become a sort of national cultural fig he's certainly from what I can see quite a significant hate figure I mean I know people don't like it when we use purely sort of technical Arcane showus terms on this podcast always but he does come across as a complete prick to me I have to say I'm sorry I had to deploy one I wonder if he can turn around his terrible Public Image well certainly he's got the money too and in a world where social media channels you know are increasingly important and you know you can self fund content it's a way of becoming a star he certainly has some sort of PR working for him as you're saying so he can he can get a lot of

17:36 listen we're talking about him but I think we understand the people who listen to this understand the context in which we're talking about him and it's is almost like a a young fo has been born and we're all wondering if it's going to ever win the uh the Grand National and we should all watch together I think he's very much going to become a feature of this podcast James wat as we watch his uh attempts to become famous but the fascinating thing yeah that idea when you say I've got this TV show it's being made you haven't and it isn't uh is an I bet you ITV have turned it down is I need to check on but I mean if he's funding this 2 million then you know anyone's going to take a meeting well last year he was funding 5 million and no one wanted to have it so $5 million I mean you know he does say actually it's no longer just about innovation technology or even scale it's

18:21 about Fame it's about building a brand that captivates the hearts and minds of an audience and there is something about that in ra you see it in someone like Trump you see it in all sorts of people if people are talking in any way about you you can monetize that you can monetize it and yes and it's it's also it's genuinely just a fascinating example of when someone who's made an awful lot of money they wants to become famous there's a real Nexus between very very rich people and very very famous people who sort of because they they both have something that the other wants uh and James wat's got all the money he could ever need but what he wants is to be recognized and loved and appreciated and you can tell from the thing I was watching he wants people to find him funny and and virtually the whole history of the Western World in the 21st century is a

19:08 series of people who are not very funny who are desperately trying to find a way to be funny and they all they want just some of these people if people had just laughed at some of their jokes like years and years ago have you seen the Elon M video of him and his friends just discussing like you know that his Saturday Night Live appearance like oh man but you know it's wor for him yeah now he's some he's someone who's done quite well isn't he Richard he's done all right he can make a house of unicorns yeah he could he could with probably with a real unicorn I think James what would be better off spending the million on an unbelievably hot publicist who can actually explain to him quite how they're going to have to take apart and rebuild him as a public figure that would be a better use probably of of the million for someone who clearly so clearly wants to become

19:55 famous 2 million well I think the viewers this expected the other the million in Little ity Bits as I understand it as I say it doesn't as exist as a television program contrary to stories you have read and it hasn't yet to be commissioned but it may well be who knows well the Brew dog TV show which should have been called Top beer is is generally him and his friend have paid an awful lot of money to make their own television program and so you know may maybe at some point he'll he'll just go I'll just pay for the whole thing myself and James if you pay for the whole thing yourself ITV will stick that on at 11: at night they'd be very very happy to he's clearly good at getting publicity he's clearly good at branding whatever else he might be in the world he's good at those things I'm dying for it one of the columns I used to write we used to unveil our spring collection of characters of people who are just going to be featured in the

20:41 column but I I would like to say that as part of the first rest is entertainment spring collection the first line we've unveiled for your delight and delectation is James Watt James wat we'll be keeping up with him shall we go to a break and I hope Beyond hope there are no adverts for brew dog certainly won't be after this one so from the birth of a new star to the ongoing battle between two stars Blake Lively and Justin baldon we've talked about it before but um there are new developments there are by way of a recap Justin baldon was the director and male lead in it ends with us the adaptation of the col in Hoover book which did very very well last summer and Blake Lively was the female lead but in December Blake Lively I wouldn't say she um launched a

21:28 law it was more of a legal filing she submitted it to the California civil rights department so this can proceed a lawsuit but it doesn't have to in which she said um that Justin baldoni had sort of harassed her and made her life Impossible on the set of it ends with us at the same time a New York Times very well sourced New York Times story clearly sourced by her um dropped called we can bury anyone and essentially concerned the smear campaign run allegedly by publicists for baldon against blate Lively and there was a big backlash against blate Lively during the promotional tour for it ends with us um which is a movie about domestic abuse and there was all sorts of what appeared to be organic kind of backlash from

22:13 bubbling up from the bottom of the internet but according to the New York Times story was far more coordinated from the top as I think to sort of get back at her clearly the film had been they managed to finish it and complete it because they probably both thought it would be a hit but it was very difficult got working environment any so that's where we were where are we now well she then did escalate it to a proper lawsuit by the way and was Justin baldoni the weekend that story came out um in the New York Times Blake Lively and her biggest star husband Ryan rennolds are clients of WME one of the very very big agencies in Hollywood and Justin baldon was also a client and W dropped him that weekend he then is left in a position where he arguably has nothing to lose he

23:00 is suing the New York Times for journalistic malpractice for $250 million which good luck with that that's not going to work I'll I'll I'll sue them for $250 million because they always leave the word Lolly out of the New York Times spelling B come on guys come on he's also launched a counter suit against Blake Lively and Ryan Reynolds specifically for 400 million dollars and um saying that they've conspired to ruin his reputation and clearly his reputation has taken a massive hit um his lawyer is a guy called Brian Freedom who even amongst a town full of monstrous entertainment lawyers is one of the last great monsters Brian Freedom fredman Brian freed oh that's Freedom would be a better name yeah it would be journalistic malth practice would that be a specific thing where'd you start but what

23:47 journalistic malpractice is a yes I think his argument is that um they spoke only to certain people that the nature of one of the reporters who um reported on it Megan Tui is one of the people who did the Weinstein story and so there's a whole sort of sense that any story written by her is freighted with kind of baggage of me too it's very difficult to prove liable and defamation anyway in US law completely different to in the UK where it's very easy um I I think he's going to really struggle with that um but he's he's essentially saying that Blake Lively is in cahoots with a journalist and they a client journalist has has written something to order blate Lively and Ryan Reynolds are already trying to get a gagging order against Brian Freedman because as you know people can say anything they like on the

24:32 airwaves they can say in America they don't have the same rules as we do so um but they will be obliged to turn over all their private messages all their emails related to ditto all of wme's correspondents I mean that's just never good it is never good when that happens and so it's not so I'm suppose the question is at the moment the first question is what more have we learned since we last covered it we already know that there was a sort of complete breakdown of a professional relationship on this film you know Justin baldon says at the premere he was basically put down in a basement with some little chairs s plastic chairs with his family and she was up having the big party okay as we said at the start bye-bye Justin because they're so much more powerful that Ryan Reynolds is the particularly is a big

25:18 big deal and he you know you'd think he would win out but as always with these things which involve disclosure of private correspondence it can get very messy I believe it's got bigger than BL Lively and Ryan Reynolds wanted yeah for sure because they put I think it's significant where they put the original legal filing in like it's you know it can proceed a law I thought that was a sort of Line in the Sand to say look what's happened to me another person involved in it now is the publicist Leslie Sloan who's Blake and Brian Reynolds is publicist in a town of monstrous publicists she's one of the great monsters so all sorts of people are now involved it's like Kong versus Godzilla yeah it it really is um so there were a lot more people in this fight than there were before it's not just Justin baldoni and Blake Lively and Ryan Reynolds and their lawyers and

26:03 publicists and various journalists but there are lawyers now for the journalists there are lawyers for the publicists who are talking on the record publicist for the reporters Taylor Swift supposedly pressured Justin baldoni to include blate Lively scenery WR Blake Lively said Taylor Swift is my dragon his his scen writes scene rewrites oh so she re wrote scenes and then said to Justin B these must be included or rather Taylor Swift said it on her behalf supposedly we basically have a sort of category five entertainment [ __ ] stor wow has James Watt said anything he hasn't yet but if there's any way he can Shack it elbow his way in here then he will do yeah I can tell assure you I can tell you one thing there won't be a trial I mean this is America we're never going to get to a trial yeah if if Prince Harry's not

26:49 going to trial oh no I mean this is noton Lively or not but one interesting thing is there's a footage of a scene which she said oh he tried to kiss me this this wasn't in the script and he said she was totally going along with it and was enjoying it and it's really weird so they've and she said well no one was recording anything so you wouldn't know but his side have leaked the scene and it's become such if you look on the internet where I'm afraid this case is basically being fought it's it's become such a sort of RW Shack blot people have seen what they want to see and she does seem to be laughing along a lot of women will know that way when you kind of laugh along in an awful situation cuz you don't want to sort of rck the where someone's come out and told the holiday reporter someone called Mia Shaka has said well he is trying to kiss her and they clearly haven't

27:35 discussed that ahead of time and she keeps pulling away and clearly doesn't want to do that and said that if there had been an intim intimacy coordinator present then they would have stopped it and she said that this is pretty damning both as an actor and a director among the largely female I have to say community of people who hate blate Lively almost professionally on the internet they say oh this is just shows that it's all complete rubbish and that BL Livy was into this whole thing and this is all made up and she's an attention seeker um so again every single thing you see what you want to see I mean certainly it it would be a very very unusual situation these days in Hollywood or in British television to have a scene where there was kissing and there was not an intimacy coordinator on hand yeah and there isn't here and

28:22 there's different reasons given as to why she did and she didn't want to do it I mean one thing I do think is very interesting the whole why did she do it at all why did she even make that first filing I think I I know the smear campaign obviously she felt that the smear campaign was existing people already don't love her necessarily but lots of PE clearly enough people love would love to turn out to see a Blake Lively film and all sorts of things like that but what she's thinking is there is a backlash and this will hurt me this will hurt me in terms of casting um and what she also did which people kind of gave for her a bit of Health for she launched a new hair line a beauty business during that publicity tour which is something your agent and your manager and all the many people who deal

29:08 with blat Lively Inc would have organized so that it you know you're out there you're Hasan great at all these premieres and you you launch the thing now she launched it via Target so this is a mass Market product and it started with extremely strong sales but then her sales drop 87% between August and September 15th which sort of tracks totally with this smear campaign now online people started saying they were returning their product that is a huge Decline and it's stuck and it's now bumping along a complete fraction of original Sal Blake Brown Beauty okay now that I think was the killer because retail gives you almost real time data ratings indication of your popularity in a way that not even box office does is absolutely minute by

29:55 minute how popular am I do people like me the the brand is the brand is the brand I mean what what whatever the product does but it's the name on the box that is the thing and it's yeah an absolute you're getting your unit sales each week like you do with your books well you'll get them every day you will get them you're not waiting to see whether when a verace campaign comes along and say oh an hathway got that and I didn't I wonder what you know the little things that if you're a big big successful actress like that you're thinking why didn't I get that why didn't I this is a real time thing that you can track and it is a line going down very very steeply how many units did you shif in Target this week now these people are corporations as we said and I think that the figures there said this isn't just some internet hot air because you know in lots of situations your agent would say Blake this is a

30:40 massive box office smash everyone's coming out to see a film people really like it it's a real hit on a small budget you've done brilliantly but if you can see some figures that say this is completely that's why I think she did it because these people are corporations yeah and that's where the real money comes from is Brands and products and things like that you know it's that's just the way you make your your money now I'll tell you who else is a corporation is Ryan Reynolds because he could say something in public he could come out and say my wife and I are really similar we've both got all these other projects we do we both whatever but I can do no wrong and she is constantly dragged now you tell me why that is I think it's sexist why doesn't Ryan Reynolds do that on one of his many talk show appearances and I tell you why because Ryan Reynolds is a corporation

31:25 and he doesn't want to offend a lot of the guys or a lot of the women who turn out for his stuff and maybe he will maybe there will be a time where he says that but to me it's really like they are a power couple who do lots of similar things they have the all these Sidelines which in some ways make more money than the actual original Core Business as it were the acting and she is constantly constantly and it's a Hu it's women by the way who who don't like her and I suppose what she's saying is this is synthetic and people would have loved me when I was on Gossip Girl why they hate me now it's because of things like this it's because of a campaign like this there's a concerted campaign it's I mean it's a huge dog fight everybody is losing um unless Justin B only somehow does get 650 million which I doubt that

32:12 very much the only place he's getting 650 million from is from uh Brew dog um but it's a mess and I have a view on how it started in White St and who who I support I suspect it's the same person that you support but from the second that it went repu and as you say America's legal system is so different to ours it's so dirty you know it's so everything that's being dragged up nobody wants to be in in in this position Blake Livy and Ryan Reynolds don't want to be in as you rightly said Justin bony doesn't really want to be but he has no other choice now because because he's dug his own grave he's got to try and climb out of it um so it's but those that apparatus of the the lawyers and the publicists is very very unpleasant and you can be sure that publicists for all sorts of different

32:58 people have done bad things in their time and there may be many many different angles to all of this um I also agree I believe that she said something that happened to her and I think it's ridiculous when you look at the difference between Ryan Reynolds and her and how they're treated in the public imagination when they're twopiece in a pod in a lot of ways talking of celebrity betrayal and uh backstabbing shall we talk about the traitors now it's finally done if you have not seen the final episodes Don't to this because we're going to talk about all of it if you have seen it then uh then then stick around if you haven't seen it by the way and you've seen the rest of it it's it's it's well worth seeing I would think as the tra is always is it's it was a total Triumph a total Triumph of the series and I think that you know the public service channels provide those things

33:44 that we still you might say everyone's watching baby reindeer or squid game but the idea that everyone's watching these appointment of view shows is very much a thing that you don't get on any of the streamers and this was you know the BBC and Studio Lambert who make it it was it's an extraordinary thing that and it's cross-generational I mean 10 10 million viewers on you know Allin which is extraordinary and also by the way if that was on a streamer would would be mindblowing to everybody in the shareholders would be thrilled beyond words um and it's you know they now get to do two series of this a year cuz we got the celebrity one and the interesting thing I thought was it has not yet outstay is welcome and you know you know my view on the format of this which is a lot of it is smoker mirrors but you get through that smoke and Mir cuz the ending is always so brilliant

34:31 it's always so compelling it's one of the few shows you could ever think of where there is jeopardy for the contestants right to the very very last second like watching the world dance you know until until that final double has been nailed anyone can win and you get it here the story is always different but you always have that ending where you are sitting forward like a penalty shooter in a world cup and you cannot believe the emotions that these people are going through and to create that from an entertainment format is such a joy and a show that talks tells you about Humanity tells you about human nature tells you about people's perceptions of themselves and and and others and just it's hard to think of another television show which delivers all of those things in the way that the

35:16 traitor does I find it so classy I would like your thoughts on the Seer power I have strong views so do I I have strong views yes um M so as I say I love this show more than anything it's brilliant I do have strong views on that okay my view on that and I we don't have to explain what it is cuz if you've seen it um you know what it is and if you if you've not seen it then it's um you know why are you listening no I get it and if you haven't seen it it'll be complicated I thought that you have to keep doing things with this format is the truth because of the things we've spoken about about how you know it's sort of meaningless you vote out until the end so you have to throw in little hand grenades now the sear is something they originally did I think on the Norwegian series so it had a track record they'd used it before and I think when it came

36:01 out people were going but this doesn't make any sense to do CU If someone knows who a traitor is then they'll just say and of course the idea is doesn't matter if you just say because actually it's your word against theirs um I think that it didn't work at all in the context of the series we've just seen I thought I totally agree with you I think it could have worked if Frankie hadn't called Charlotte in if they've been two faithfuls or something like that who someone said but you know what were the chances I was like well they were 25% so I would not like those odds if I was a producer it's just yeah if I was a producer I would assume she's going to take Alexander in because Alexander literally given her all of that money in order to say just call me in and Frankie never quite had the game player's brain she just looked she looked at what was in front of her at any given time so she

36:47 calls in Charlotte from the moment she's in two people are doomed and that's Frankie and Charlotte if the second you've got a faithful anat trator in that situation then there is no tactic nothing for the rest of the people to do other than vote out both of them everything leads to nuclear war this is basically Cold War exercise and there's one outcome you know given you have to trust everyone given also you're going to be sharing the money with however many Faith are left if one person is saying they are faithful one person saying that the traitor then there is only one thing to do that anyone in the entirety of the world would do which is you have to vote out both of them especially now we don't find out that you know when Charlotte leav we don't find out she's a traitor so if you're any sort of faithful so the second that Frankie won that task and the second she

37:32 called in Charlotte they were both doomed and that's a shame I agree the the from a different angle I would say that it turned the show a little bit nasty at the end um I could live without people swearing as a mother I'm a mother I'm a mother I can live without that and but the major thing I can live without is people crying and being unpleasant to each other which by the way I can see on basically every other reality okay what I love about traitors is it is so classy and that the round table which you have in every episode is a even when people are are going for each other they do it in a very sort of formalized I mean it's very civilized isn't it we are sort of in a drawing room especially in this series funnily enough people people are actually quite respectful with each other but I think in general they are

38:18 and we are sort of in a drawing room at the end of an Agy every night it's sort of formalized and you don't have screaming arguments there were a couple of people in show including one of the winners who I Leanne I mean Leanne benefited by the way from what I've called before the [ __ ] premium if you get everything wrong and you get everything so obviously wrong and you're very over emotional you may well there was someone I think in the first age was her name Hannah similar sort of yeah um you know people who constantly tell you what type of person they are I'm a very this type of person by the way anyone who does that in life is probably something slightly different to what they think they are let people show you who they are rather than tell you who they are that's it that's usually easier um Leanne I think exactly that she there's there's this Trope that's com in which is I'm trying to think who's keeping me in so I think that the um the

39:03 traitor must be one of my friends cuz someone's keeping me in you think no you're' been kept in because you're you're wrong about everything lean I I you know what another lovely way they do the storytelling is by the end I was very fond of Leanne and the things she done but she was the only person in the round table she would say she would say um Marina I think you're a traitor and you'd say well I think you're a traitor lean and she'd go what how dare do you know what how dare you get personal well I tell you who else is a bit like that was someone called Livy now both of those I have to say felt like contestants I can see on other reality formats and the thing about the traitors is is like this is the only time you're going to get like a sort of a priest or really nerdy game player or someone who says my father led a double life and I feel like I can spot people who lie now

39:49 because we didn't spot that and you know these extraordinary stories people who like strategy games that's how they recruit quite a lot of them um a peace negotiator or whatever you don't see people someone like Liv I feel I see those on other tyes of shows and I don't necessarily want to see them again so not to use a SE power but my SE power is we won't see the SE power next year something else will come along um because they always need to kind of as you say can we talk about the biggest mistakes of the game okay I feel that Mina recruiting Charlotte instead of Jake was probably the biggest mistake of the game fora fora yeah fora yeah is again it's another one of the the lovely flaws of this for format where yeah you you you need to recruit people that you can get rid of you need to recruit people who are not quite as smart as you

40:35 because you know it's so draining being a traitor it's so it is so draining to play that way from the start I I think it's just the level of e effort expended is enormous it must be 10 times as much I don't know how they do it yeah I would still love to do it um I have to say yes so Mina getting Charlotte yes I think that was um I think that was probably an error on her part two very very bad traitors from the beginning armanii and Linda neither of whom had any cap you know both AR armanii just that brilliant thing she kept saying no you got to do more you got to be more visible Amman listen there's there's like 20 people there like know what just honestly have a few weeks where you just sail under the radar honestly it'll be it'll be fine you don't you don't need to be stirring up yes that that was uh yes

41:20 Mina choosing Charlotte was a mistake Charlotte being too clever with the thing she did with Freddy where he she had he had a whole day to realize what she that she knifed him but whilst he was still present yes that was the second she did it which in one way it looked enormously yeah clever which is Freddy had not heard that conversation she had so there's no way that she she would have um CH the answer it seemed clever but yes I she misunder she underestimated the fact that immediately Freddy would know exactly what she'd done and 10 hours in the day yeah exactly there a lot of there's a lot of sitting around on sofas with uh with people I do think though that Charlotte would have won if it hadn't been for the SE which I think is another shame because I think if you play that well and I think she play brilliantly I think you should be rewarded uh one way or

42:09 another listen it's it's great and it's why we love the traitors because it's always different and you do never know but there there's just that bit where you think oh but she should have in the same way that you know Ireland should have qualified for the World Cup but Jerry hry handal is there's a bit of you just go oh but history should have been Rewritten but you know traitors is it's sport it's not it's not a game show you know it's a sport blood yeah oh they had we we've talked about that so often that they need to find a way to Ally the missions much more to to become either divisive or to in some way become dynamic in a way that influences the aot game um I found them hilariously Camp I mean Claud the whole thing is just they were brilliant all of the crazy clowns and the and and the ritual ping pouring

42:55 oil over them all of them very very funny I think the shield to me from season 2 ons has absolutely solved that issue with the um with the games and the brilliant first game I just watched the first episode of the American one and they do the same game where they have to be in the ring of fire to be safe and you leave two people on the raft with the fuel and with the money and that is a great game cuz it immediately incredibly annoys the people who sacrificed themselves yeah it's that awful combination of that was the probably the best one of all of them I have sacrificed myself but also you now think I'm a traitor because I sacri it's sacrifice it feels so um UNF we'll talk a bit about the American one in a while but yeah I I I think the ending I watched um uncloaked and nobody seemed particularly happy I think Leanne and Jake were both

43:42 felt bad that they' voted out Alexander and Frankie so they they sort of felt like oh I they deserve the money you can always share the money well I mean that's exactly shouting at the screen but equally of course you vote both of them out I mean you have to vote out Frankie because yeah she said that Charlotte was a traitor Charlotte said she was so there's no there's nothing to be gained by leaving her in you have to vote on Alexander God bless Alexander who sort of he just had that doomed look on his face all the way through he's like look I'm I get it I'm enjoying myself I'm I'm sort of going to be voted out in the bottom three aren't I like like when we get down to it because they can't they don't really trust me no they don't trust him because he's clever yeah and also you know he was he was bought in I was again the thing of um looking the

44:27 producer's hand in this show if I was on that show and when armanii and Mina the sisters were in there they chosen one of those as the traitor when you got two new people coming in you're not choosing one of those as the traitor CU you've already done that trick you've done the trick of the two people who come as a group you're not doing that trick again so both of those people are faithful so unless he'd been recruited it wouldn't I wouldn't have occurred to me for a second that Alexander had been a traitor but you know you got to vote him out because you want to share that you know it's 94,000 and you'd rather have £47,000 than £ 31,000 I'm so desperate for you to do celebrity traitors I can't even tell you I'm so desperate I'm I'm really not I'm not even lying I I know some of the names who are and it's going to be brilliant it's going the casting is brilliant can I talk a tiny bit about casting on these shows and how cuz we we

45:12 spoken before on on on Strictly Apprentice all of these shows how how the casting directors are sometimes the kind of great talents of British television goggle box things like that it's it's all down to the casting uh and this is one show where I feel so desperately sorry for the casting directors because they are doing cuz you want great characters but also who have a journey to go on and have you know have have hidden depths but also are going to be fun for people to to watch and also going to make people talk and you you're throwing them into an environment where you know you lose your biggest characters very very early on or your cleverest characters or just people that you you know are going to go on on a journey and you tend to keep some of your more mediocre characters by the way not mediocre human beings just in terms

45:59 of a TV presence and and what you want from a story you tend to keep those in later so if I was a casting director it must it must be impossible to do we we spoke before I think about the the lovely um Jack I think is it Jack um oh he looked lovely he' look like he'd have been great fan My Hope if I was a traitor's producer and I'm not is in the lineup for next year's traitors we see Jack yes please don't you think and if that's not something they thought of and I'm absolutely certain they have thought of it um but if you haven't I think we would all love to see that cuz he he seemed like it was going to be fun and he didn't have the opportunity because he sacrificed himself so let's have Jack in the lineup for next year's show and then you've done one of your bookings already he's already been checked he's gone through all of that you know yes

46:46 you're right he was absolutely super I think he' have been really good so yeah an amazing series but amazing because even with the ending that you felt I don't know about this it's still the traitors and there's still that thing of nobody knows and you can see Leanne right up to the last second God bless Jake he absolutely Play I Loved Jake by the way he played such a Blinder in that final two where he he wouldn't look at her and you know he could cuz he knew she was about to be incredibly happy yeah and he just uh he said un uncloaked funny enough he said I a bit of me wanted to just keep that going even longer yeah uh but he was great but people behave now in the way that reality formats have taught them to behave they insert the pauses themselves into their own speech before they used to edit those in um and now their behavior is dictated by the for yeah

47:31 it's exactly that but I think the sea didn't work the thing of not revealing that if you're a traitor uh or a faithful in the last five I thought did work I thought I thought that's really smart but I think what's instructive is that it's just it's it's the traitors and in the same way that sometimes Wimbledon is doesn't quite work or the wrong person gets knocked out uh with that you go oh yeah didn't yeah the sea didn't work did it come on come on guys can't wait for the next series don't have that but involved in that sentences I can't wait for the next series because you want to see you want to see human beings I just I love I just love seeing it the American one has dropped for anybody who uh who that's one I play now yeah for anyone who's got withdrawal symptoms have a watch of that it is an entirely different vibe it is an entirely different vibe because everyone on it has been on Survivor or Real

48:18 Housewives and they form these little clicks as well which which which I love they're all game players they all come at it right from the start yeah they have as you say Arian blocks yes they really really do where they like Housewives together yeah it's and right right from the start this one hits the grand running if you do not enjoy the first episode this series will not be for you and I can there's a brashness and an americanness to it which I get Alan cuming I think is unbelievable he is so brilliant do you in that role yeah I think he's great and particularly in this episode The Americans he is uh he I absolutely love him but um yes the the first episode it's it is it is quite something they play pretty much all the same tasks as we've had in the UK one as well which is quite interesting because it feels like you know we've done the

49:03 task and now we watch other people do it but um all hail the BBC all hail Studio Lambert um it's a public service broadcasting Triumph that would simply just wouldn't be possible in the same way on any of the streamers and it crosses all generations and it it's proper water cooler I don't know people have water coolers anymore but it's it's it's that no one goes to work anymore yeah I don't want to get all James wat here but why is no one going into the office I was talking to one of the um execs on traitors and uh I said to him you know the bit where they all have to carry those Easter Island statues and you got the heads and you got the bodies and the bodies look exactly like penises yeah like you know I said was that and in

49:49 joke he goes we literally only noticed on the day he said they'd all been made they' all been built we're thinking of about a million other things he were thinking about the contestants uh and then the second that two of them just raised one of these huge Stone things above their heads everyone in the gallery go oh my God they look exactly like [ __ ] oh my God he said we had absolutely no idea so I thought well that's you never know with I love that yeah so American traitors will count as our recommendation for uh this week all right then other than that please send your questions to us to the rest is entertainment at gmail.com and we will see you on Thursday we'll see you on Thursday everyone [Music] go