@MikeWinger is WRONG About Micah Turnbo @BeholdWonder

0:00 Mike Winger just posted a video bombing Micah Turnbo. In this video, I'm going to explain the problems with Mike Winger. And despite having agreed with him in the past on other rebukes, I think he's wrong about this one. This is going to be a long and in-depth video. I'm going to biblically address every single concern that Mike has with Mike Turnbo, and I'm going to flip the script back on Mike and explain why he's teaching you the wrong way on this specific video. And yes, it might be a salvic issue. Now, I have a history with both of these guys. Before making this video, I texted Micah and asked if he thought it was a good idea. In that text message, I told Micah I thought it was a good opportunity to illustrate a problem I see developing with the Christian community. Specifically, that many Christians do not understand that Christ wants to know his bride like any husband would. He agreed and said, "Go for it."

0:46 And that's really going to come down to the crux of this issue. How intimate does God really want to be with his bride? Mike Winger thinks it's a sterile relationship. Micah Turnbo is describing it as sexual in nature or rather that physical sex is a mirror of spiritual salvation. Specifically, what God means when he wants to know you and the level of intimacy God actually wants to have with you. Let's look at what the Bible says and figure out where on the spectrum is actually true. This video is going to be super uncomfortable, but again, I think this is a good opportunity to address this issue publicly. Now, my history with Mike Winger is a little bit different, and it's actually the reason I have a channel and an audience today. Mike Winger used to have a Facebook group called Thinking Biblically with Pastor Mike. I started posting difficult questions in that group and it started a thread of controversial esoteric topics

1:32 that Mike Winger felt uncomfortable with. So much so that he closed the group down because it was becoming too esoteric. Hilarity ensued as someone started thinking biblically without Pastor Mike, but that only got it to 115 members. But Pastor Mike's inability or unwillingness to address these difficult questions led me to start making my own content. And now 230,000 followers later, here we are. People want answers to the harder things. They don't want surface level stuff. And this is important to establish upfront because part of Mike Winger's problem is that he consistently runs away from the more difficult parts of scripture. He calls it going beyond what's written. But in reality, he just refuses to address some of the things that are written that make him uncomfortable. It's like his claim against Joel Olstein. Everything Joel

2:18 Olstein says is technically biblical, but it's the parts he's leaving out that cause the problem. Now, Mike Winger teaches a true gospel, I believe, but so does Micah Turnbo despite all the visions and the crazy stuff he says. I've never once heard him contradict that we're saved by grace through faith, not works. I've never once heard him deny that Christ is God, that he died, was buried, and rose again on the third day. For all his controversy, he's teaching you the correct gospel. If you want to talk about scripture, the Bible promises that if you teach the correct gospel, you will be criticized. Meanwhile, go to any one of Mike Winger's videos and read through the comments, and he gets complete echo chamber agreement. Micah seems to be being hated for Jesus's name's sake. But the Bible says, "Woe to you when all people speak well of you, for so their fathers did to the false prophet."

3:03 Everyone likes Mike Winger. No one's giving him any flak for calling up Micah's church and trying to get him fired. Yet, if I post a single rebuke about a controversial Christian, my comments are filled with, "You guys need to get along." The Bible says Jesus came with a sword to divide. This is the same God who split the languages at the Tower of Babel. Oh, but he's not going to create a theological tower of Babel because he wants us to need each other. Christianity is not about the different languages of how you describe the one true gospel. It's whether or not you're telling the one true story that happened before the splitting of the languages. The Bible says, "Faithful are the wounds of a friend because iron sharpens iron." This kumbaya Christianity is not what the Bible's promoting. Thank God Mike Winger agrees with me. I hope he welcomes this rebuke and listens to it

3:50 and tries to glean anything he can take from it. God knows I'm not perfect myself, but I think I'm about to bring up some very solid points. Now, in this video, I'm going to show the problem with Mike Winger, why he's actually, ironically, guilty of exactly what he's accusing Micah Turnbo, which is deriving his theology from his own mind. Then, I'm going to address the issue of how intimate God wants to be with us through scripture. And then, I'm going to shoot down every single one of Mike's points about Micah. That doesn't mean I am saying that everything Micah says is biblical. Just that Mike Winger accusing Micah of being unbiblical is not founded. In the end, make your own choice. And so for me, it's ironic that Mike Winger is talking about the origin story of Micah Turnbo when in fact Mike Winger is my origin story. And at least

4:36 on social media, I am part of Micah Turnbo's origin story. which means by proxy Micah Turnbo's origin story is Mike Winger. Because of his unwillingness to address difficult topics because he clearly doesn't understand the spiritual world, it forced me to start answering these questions which gave me an audience. And when I found Micah Turnbo, I encouraged him to get on TikTok and go on the deep end with Taylor Welch and the rest is history. In a sense, Mike Winger's inability or unwillingness to address difficult topics opened the door for people like me and Mike a Turnboat to do it. Oh, the irony. Let's start off with the problems with Mike Winger in the first place, which might shock and upset you because a lot of people think that he doesn't have any problems. He seems

5:22 like a wholesome middle America, run-of-the-mill, straight down the line Biblethinking, Bible believing, gospel preaching pastor. And he largely is. But the problem with Mike Winger is much deeper and darker than that. So much so that I don't think he even knows what his own problem is. But I do because I used to have the same problem. I understand it very well. The problem is that Mike Winger's mindset and heart posture are out of order with his spirit. The heart is supposed to be governed by the mind. The mind is supposed to be governed by the spirit. And your spirit is supposed to be governed by the Holy Spirit. This is the order of heart posture and mindset. subjugated to the spirit. The reason for this is because in Genesis, God had dominion over man. Man had dominion over

6:07 woman and man and woman had dominion over the animals. But a flipping of the order occurred. The animal, a snake, took dominion over woman through deceit. Woman took dominion over man through coercion, and man tried to become God. The same thing is true here. If you get the order backwards, chaos ensues. The Holy Spirit needs to bear witness to your spirit. specifically to tell you that we are children of God. Now, this is a problem. Mike Winger is criticizing Micah Turnbo for being too much of a child, for turning heaven into a playground, for making heaven itself seem like it's for infants. Micah's spirit heard from the Holy Spirit that we are children of God. This is definitely not a problem Micah Turnbo has. The problem here is that Mike Winger doesn't understand the extent to

6:53 which we are children of God because the Holy Spirit hasn't revealed it yet to his spirit. And that's because for Mike Winger, this part is separated. And so he's using his mind as a crutch to try to understand these things rather than having his mind under the governance of his spirit. Great, Dr. Mike. That sounds woo woo and impossible to verify. Where does it say this in the Bible? As I said, the Holy Spirit bears witness to your spirit. So your spirit is underneath the Holy Spirit. Unless you disagree with that, which I don't think anyone would. 10 verses before that in Romans 8 again it says the mind governed by the flesh is death but the mind governed by the spirit is life and peace so the holy spirit bears witness to your spirit your mind needs to be governed by your spirit and the heart is deceitful above all things clearly that's on the

7:39 bottom this also works with husbands and wives and children this also works with spirit soul and body if you flip the order it's problematic the things that Micah Turnbo is talking about is coming from the spirit Now, you could argue it's coming from a demonic spirit, but it is coming through the port of the spirit, not the mind. That's why Mike Winger is saying this doesn't make any logical sense and it needs to make logical sense because Mike Winger needs it to exist on this level because there's a divide for him and he doesn't have his mind subjugated to his spirit. Now, Mike Winger is talking about Micah Turnbo being governed by his heart because he looks down from the mind and says this is emotion. Micah Turnbo is looking down from the spirit saying this is intellectualism. They both think they're diagnosing the other person. But

8:26 I would say that Micah Turnbo is operating on a higher level than Mike Winger. So much so that Mike Winger doesn't understand this. And so he defaults to thinking it's this. Mike Winger thinks he's telling Micah Turnbo, you have to hold yourself to the higher standard of common sense. Bring what you're saying up to a higher standard. But what Micah Turnbo is hearing is that you need this dumbed down so it makes sense to your mind. Doesn't Mike Winger just openly admit that he uses his mind to read the Bible? Isn't the name of his channel Thinking Biblically with Mike Winger, not discerning spiritually with Mike Winger? Everything about his ministry is intellectualism. Now, he's right about a lot of things because a broken clock is right twice a day. But he really struggles with understanding

9:13 what we're talking about when we talk about spiritual discernment. Even his idea of spiritual discernment is an idea under his mind rather than the escape from the process of thought itself that is living in the spirit. Now, I'm not talking about ehart tools escaping the egoic self. That's the religion of new age. But even new age stole their religion from 1 Corinthians 2:11. For who knows a person's thoughts except their own spirit within them. In the same way, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Holy Spirit, the spirit of God. The spirit is the one that is over the mind to discern the thoughts of man. Mike Winger does not have this process in his worldview. His operating system boot order, the basic input output system bio is not structured in

10:00 the correct order. He's trying to get Micah Turnbo to bring his spiritual revelations down to the level of common sensical thought, which is like the atheist trying to get the Christian to make Christianity make sense when the Bible itself says it's foolishness to them. Now, since Mike Winger is governed by his mind, let's go deeper into how the mind works and we will find more red flags with Mike Winger. Now, Mike Winger would claim that he reads the Bible exeetically. This means setting your mind permissions to write only and then reading the Bible and let what the Bible says write onto the hard drive of your mind rather than the other way setting your mind to read only setting the Bible to write permission and then forcing what you want it to say into scripture. The problem is this isn't really a

10:46 difference between exeetical study versus isogetical study. This is a difference between convergent and divergent thought. Again, we see that the devil's deceit is tricking you into tracking the wrong metric. The real thing you have to understand is divergent verse convergent thought. Convergent thought is to take facts and converge them into a central worldview. This sounds great. We call this exogetical Bible study. Read the Bible because it's definitely fact and then form your theology. The problem is the resulting worldview is only as good as the fact you pump into it. So, for instance, the Bible says we're justified by works in James 2. It says we're justified by faith and it says we're justified by grace. So, which one is it? I don't know. Maybe it's all of them.

11:33 Maybe your spirit is justified by grace. Your soul is justified by faith and your flesh is justified by works. Or maybe that's backwards. Or maybe that's totally wrong. Or maybe Michael Heisner is right that the spirit and the soul are the same thing. I'd be curious to see if Mike Winger could even describe the difference between the soul and the spirit. one of the brand of questions he likes to avoid. Or maybe James 2 is subject to Romans 4 which was written 16 years later and so Paul's addressing James and therefore we're not justified at all by works. But then the plain reading of James 2 is wrong. Okay. So what is a fact exactly? If someone reads James 2:22 and takes it as a fact and plugs it into their worldview, their central worldview is going to result in a saved by works heresy. But since there's only convergent exoggetical

12:18 thought, this is a one-way street of once something is verified as fact, then it gets baked into your worldview and it never comes out. These are rocks in the field in the parable of the sewer. And so you need to switch over to a divergent thought process in this season and start with a central question and ask possible answers out on the periphery. Mike Winger doesn't typically do this and this is the problem with people with systematic theology. My personal recommendation for your heart posture is that it needs to be governed by your mind. And my personal recommendation for your mindset is a tertiary type of thought called lateral thinking. It consists of waves of convergent versus divergent. And then of course in addition to that with that correct mindset your entire mental capacity needs to be governed by the spirit. Anyways specifically in the

13:06 compartment of his mind he has set his permissions to convergent. But his resulting theology is only as good as the facts he pumps in. And this is the problem with people who have systematic theology. Systematic theology goes all the way back to the early church. Oregon is the first person I know of in the early church that came up with a systematic theology given he had some heretical beliefs too like degrees of divinity where he said Jesus is not quite as divine as God. But you see this over and over and over again. The Ethiopian unic had the word of God, but he didn't understand it. So, Philip shows up and says, "You know what it says, but do you understand what it means?" And he rightly said, "How can I unless I have a teacher?" Imagine if Philip never showed up. And the

13:51 Ethiopian unic in desperation wanted to understand. So, he kept reading and reading and reading and forcing it. And he came up with a system of theology that made sense to his mind. But he actually never had the Holy Spirit to explain it to him. And so you end up with people like Mike Winger, Sam Shimone, Tim Alberino. I love Mike Winger. I think he's got a lot right. Praise God because the Bible itself is right and he reads the Bible a lot. But I think his spiritual discernment is way off. A matter of fact, almost muted. I think he would probably criticize people who have a voice in their head and think they're talking to the Holy Spirit. Now, Tertullian had this problem, a very influential thinker, but he realized there was something wrong and actually converted to Montanism because Montinus

14:37 was basically the father of the charismatic movement. Now, this is problematic, too, because it didn't end well. My understanding is that Montinus died in a demonic rage babbling about prophecies that never came true, which is a point to Mike Winger because that definitely happens and it typically happens in the charismatic movement. The problem with Calvinists and other people like Mike Winger is that they tend to form their theology as the inverse of what they've seen abused. Now, Mike Winger is smart and he's pretty self-aware. He knows this and he tries to balance it out. But like for instance how Protestants hate Mary because Catholics have turned her into a god. We're not supposed to hate Mary. We're just supposed to ignore the heresy and do what the Bible says. We should love Mary, not pray to Mary. We should accept

15:23 that she's a dead woman who had sex with her husband who was a sinner like the rest of us who can't hear our prayers. But we should love her as a sister in Christ and rejoice that we're going to get to meet her in heaven. Praise God. But to overcorrect allows the devil to use some sort of reverse psychology because of your oppositional defiant disorder. If he knows you're going to predictably do anything, he's going to do the opposite to force you one way or the other. And Mike Winger has seen spiritual gifts abused to a ridiculous extent. Mike Winger, I think, has openly said that he wishes he was cessationist because it would just be easier. And I agree with him. It is very tricky trying to figure out whose spiritual gift is legit and whose isn't, especially if we don't have those spiritual gifts. And so

16:10 we know them by their fruit. And I agree with him that it is widely abused. But the fruit of Micah Turbo's life and ministry is teaching the correct gospel, people coming to Christ, and people getting closer to God and their intimacy with the relationship to God. Now, we're going to talk about how intimate God wants you to be with him. Does the church get bent over on the wedding night? Does God want to consummate the marriage with his bride? I can tell you I'm married and I love my wife and yes in that way. Why are we saying that God wouldn't love his bride in that way? Have you guys not read Songs of Solomon? I made you grow like a plant in the field. You grew and developed and entered into puberty. Your breasts had formed and your hair had grown. Yet you were stark

16:56 naked. Later I passed by and when I looked at you, I saw that you were old enough for love. I spread the corner of my garment over you. We'll talk about this in a minute. And covered your naked body. I gave you my solemn oath and entered into a covenant with you, declares the sovereign Lord, and you became mine. That sounds pretty intimate. Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth, for thy love is better than wine. This Nopoly wine's pretty good. I don't know about them kisses. Because of the savor of thy good ointments, thy name is as ointment poured forth. Therefore do the virgins love thee. Draw me. We will run after thee. The king hath brought me

17:41 into his chambers. What do you think happens in the king's chambers, guys? Isn't Jesus the king and you're his bride? Or you're part of the body that makes up his bride? What happens on the wedding night between a king and his bride? We will be glad and rejoice in thee. We will remember thy love more than wine. The upright love thee. Sounds pretty intimate. I slept, but my heart was awake. Listen, my beloved is knocking. Open to me, my sister, my darling, my dove, my flawless one. My head is drenched with dew, my hair with dampness of the night. I have taken off my robe. Must I put it on again? I have washed my feet. Must I soil them again? Bro, this is the biblical version of It's cold

18:27 outside. My beloved thrust his hand through the latch opening. My heart began to pound for him. I arose to open for my beloved, and my hand dripped with myrr. My fingers with flowing myrr on the handles of the bolt. But no, bro, God doesn't want to have a relationship with his wife. It's all maturity. It's all sterile. There's no intimacy. God doesn't want to consummate the marriage with his bride. Why would he? That's only what happens in every single good marriage. I dare you to read Songs of Solomon and tell me that that's not how Jesus feels about his church. What about sin? It surely has a sexual connotation. There she lusted after her lovers whose genitals were like those of donkeys and emissions were like that of horses.

19:14 Pretty disgusting. When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone. But each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desires and enticed. Enticed is a second part of that process. It is referring to an entity, a spirit that is tempting you. And how do we know that? Because there's conception and it takes two to tango. Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin. And sin when full grown gives birth to death. The wages of sin is death. This is describing sin as sex. So why would salvation not be the same thing with a different spirit? Was it not the Holy Spirit that impregnated Mary? Yet spirits don't have sex. Did the angels not lust after earth women? But angels

20:00 don't have any sexual desires. How does that mesh with scripture? See, the problem with Mike Winger and people like him is that this type of mindset and heart posture leads you to read the Bible in a way that God doesn't want you to read the Bible. Jesus always talked in stories. Jesus said, "Unless you become like a child, you cannot enter the kingdom of God." That's like tricks are for kids, but like salvation is for kids. Yet, Mike Winger is saying that we shouldn't make the kingdom of God seem like it's for children. Didn't Jesus say it was exclusively for children? That unless you become like a little child, you can't even enter? Then he wants to say heaven has to be more mature than this. I'm sorry. Is seriousness a fruit of the spirit? Let me show you a little bit about my relationship with my daughter. You tell me if it's serious

20:47 and then you tell me if God is this kind of father to you. [Music] Oh yes. [Music] Where is she? Where' she go? Where is she? But where she go? Where's Abby? Where is

21:35 she? Where'd she go? There she is. Add is that Eddie's fort? It's Addy. Where'd she go? Eddie, I think we go this way. See, there's two trails. Come here. See the trail there that And there's also a trail here. Which one should we take? Uhhuh. Which one you want to take? That one. This one. Good job. I think that's probably the right one. You see how it's a better trail, Addy? See how this one's a better trail? Yeah. Typically, you stay on the

22:20 better trail. Okay. Okay. In life, you're going to take the the road less traveled, though. Okay. So, that's good that you started down that road. Okay. This road is well traveled, right? This road over here is less traveled. Okay. In life, you always want to take the road less traveled. Okay. All right. Go ahead. Where is she? Where' she go? Wait a minute. There she is. There she is. He's silly. Silly girl. Mike Winger is calling that bad parenting. Or he's saying that God is not a good parent because he's saying

23:07 that that is not how God feels about you. Me and Micah Turnbo think that's exactly how God feels about you. I would argue that that is the type of relationship God wants with you. And that's a large part of what he means when he calls you his child. Not that you would say, "Excuse me, Aba." But that you would cry out like a child who knows no other word than aba. We really have to dig deep into how intimate God exactly wants to be with us. Because Jesus says, "Depart from me. I never knew you." And if that knowing is the same knowing of Adam knowing his wife and Mike Winger is telling you not to know Jesus to that level of intimacy, then he's preaching a false gospel and you will hear, "Depart from me. I never knew you." And you're like, "No, you

23:54 don't understand. I watched a lot of YouTube videos. I really understand the mechanism of the correct gospel." And he's like, "Depart from me. I never knew you." And you're like, "But Mike Winger said that's not what you meant when you said know me." and he'll say, "Depart from me. I never knew you." And so this might very well be a salvic issue. If you're getting to the question of does Jesus want to consummate the marriage with his bride, the church, which you're a part of, and your answer is no, but the biblical truth is yes, then you don't know Jesus. You have not consummated the marriage or you've not let him consummate the marriage. You're a bad bride. You're a stingy wife. We really have to dig deep into this. And I know it's uncomfortable. The reason it's uncomfortable is because your school

24:41 master of sex has been the devil, pornography, and all the sexual mistakes you've made in your past. You see sex the way the devil wants you to see sex. You see sex the way the world has programmed you to see sex. You see sex through the broken lens of pornography. where maybe you've exercised enough self-control or your testosterone is low enough to where you didn't have to deal with that, but now you form your theology about sex as the inverse of what you've seen other people abuse. So, let's look at what the Bible actually says about sex. Because I would argue that sex is a physical mirror of spiritual salvation and that the reason this topic is so very uncomfortable is intentional. But who told you it was disgusting? Who told you you were naked?

25:27 Did God did the Bible? All right, Tik Tok is literally getting to the limit of how long I can make this video. And so if this hits well and Mike Winger responds, I'll make a part two debunking every single thing he said about Micah Turnbo. Brother Mike Winger, the ball's in your